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A Walk in Hong Kong

idlewords.com

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Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#391

Post by seppin »

jnbiche wrote: post #344
_qng9 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've long been a lurker on HN but these protests have compelled me to create an account to chime in on the situation. As someone who's bilingual, travelled to both China and Hong Kong, and worked and interacted with Chinese people, the sheer volume and intensity of Sinophobic comments on western social media (Twitter, Reddit) following the wake of these protests painting China and the Chinese Communist Party(CCP) as…

This isn't that complicated: many citizens of Hong Kong enjoy their democratic form of government, and fear full control by an authoritarian Chinese government. The Chinese government, on the other hand, sees Hong Kong as an integral part of China that was taken from them, and see it as their right to rule the land as they see fit (prior agreements with the UK notwithstanding). So what's this nuance you're referring…

> So what's this nuance you're referring to? You spent 4 paragraphs talking about how nuanced the situation is, yet never provided any examples.

I thought I was going crazy too. Repeating "people just don't get it" over and over isn't an argument.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#392

Post by simonebrunozzi »

spectramax wrote: post #61
TASMebWdhWc9NeA wrote: post #51

I am in Verona (Italy) at this time, and I'm in a hotel where some tourists from Shanghai happen to be as well. I'm alone, so I hang out in the lobby a lot. I just engaged in some small talk with some of those tourists, and the discussion somehow shifted to the Hong Kong protests. Basically what they sad is that western culture in Hong Kong clashes with the chinese culture. They don't seem to say that the chinese way…

Let’s replace China with X so there is no xenophobic rebuttals. X is an authoritarian regime that has no rule of law, president has self declared perpetual status in the office, piracy is rampant, no respect for privacy of others, there is an app called ourchat that is effectively owned by the government and is increasing becoming a necessity, no media let alone any kind of investigative journalism especially against…

> I wish the next superpower would be a country such as Norway or Sweden, it would set such a utopian example for the world to move into the right direction.

The counter-argument is that ANY nation that becomes powerful will try to exert the same type of imperialism, no matter the era / technology / culture: Italians did it with the Roman Empire (10-15 centuries ago), Spanish did it with the Spanish Empire (5 centuries ago), etc, etc.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#393

Post by seppin »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #373
jnbiche wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't that complicated: many citizens of Hong Kong enjoy their democratic form of government, and fear full control by an authoritarian Chinese government. The Chinese government, on the other hand, sees Hong Kong as an integral part of China that was taken from them, and see it as their right to rule the land as they see fit (prior agreements with the UK notwithstanding). So what's this nuance you're referring…

> many citizens of Hong Kong enjoy their democratic form of government They didn’t have a democracy prior to this protest (eligible HK SAR administrators were picked by Beijing). They also didn’t have a democracy during British rule (HKers could not vote). > fear full control by an authoritarian Chinese government Some do, some don’t. Not everyone is a protester or even in the anti-Beijing camp. Generally younger peo…

> They didn’t have a democracy prior to this protest (eligible HK SAR administrators were picked by Beijing). They also didn’t have a democracy during British rule (HKers could not vote).

Because they didn't have a full democracy before (because of CCP regulations) they aren't able to demand one now?

> They may also have seen how China changed for the better over the decades

HK per capita gdp and every other standard of living measure has been, and continues to be far better than maintain China. I don't know what you are trying to say here.

> This shows that “democracy equals good outcomes, authoritarian equals bad outcomes” isn’t always true. It isn’t necessarily UNtrue either but it is... nuanced?

You're almost there. Democracy doesn't equal good outcomes, but authoritarianism without liberalization always ensures a bad one. The only way the CCP can hold on to power will be through further violent crackdowns at home and wars abroad. Arguing this outcome is a good thing for the Chinese people, or the world, is odd.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#394

Post by idlewords »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #360
idlewords wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reasons for the protests are well-covered elsewhere, they are full of nuance that I can't get right, and my assumption is that people who read through this post and are interested will be able to find lots of background on the protests through a simple google search. I would normally have added reading links, but things are moving fast here and also I am on an unfamiliar travel laptop where it's kind of a chore t…

The protest started from a proposed law to extradite HKers to China. That point is not nuanced, it's just a contextual fact.

That is how the protest started. Why it continues, why it has grown, and why extraditing people is such a galvanizing issue, is complicated.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#395

Post by powerapple »

spectramax wrote: post #383
powerapple wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is not absurd reasoning. Source: being Chinese

What you are agreeing to is that it is OK for a government to arbitrarily censor information to the public as long as it is possible for the people to bypass it - this is absolutely and utterly absurd. Please provide some additional color as to why you think otherwise.

You are putting words to my mouth. I was referring to words: 'To them, they live in a society with restrictions, but they've all benefited immensely from it in the past decades.' I think this is ok reasoning in my opinion. I think it is OK for a government to arbitrarily censor information to the public as long as they are serving the public good in other areas. governments are not perfect. If you ask my opinion, I think it is stupid to censor information. From what I observe, having access to censored information will not make public against government, sometimes it can make them more pro-China. Government is really thinking more about stability, they don't want to people to be either nationalists nor rebels. Information cannot be censored, it works because people don't really care.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#396

Post by Breza »

prawn wrote: post #8

One of Maciej's best IMO. Informative and very entertaining. I was struck in particular by: "I can’t get over the oddness of the situation. In one direction is bedlam, in the other complete normalcy, separated by a few hundred meters." In 2003, I was walking in Madrid one evening with my girlfriend when war protesters became engaged in some sort of battle with riot police. We had wandered amongst protesters up one st…

I live in Washington DC. Even during the most intense protests (Iraq war, Occupy, Trump inauguration), the city carries on as usual.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#397

Post by woutr_be »

powerapple wrote: post #395
spectramax wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are agreeing to is that it is OK for a government to arbitrarily censor information to the public as long as it is possible for the people to bypass it - this is absolutely and utterly absurd. Please provide some additional color as to why you think otherwise.

You are putting words to my mouth. I was referring to words: 'To them, they live in a society with restrictions, but they've all benefited immensely from it in the past decades.' I think this is ok reasoning in my opinion. I think it is OK for a government to arbitrarily censor information to the public as long as they are serving the public good in other areas. governments are not perfect. If you ask my opinion, I t…

And to be clear, I don't support a government restricting and putting limitations on people. But I'm also not a big fan of pushing your Western views on other countries if you've never visited them.
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