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Terminating Service for 8Chan

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Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#391

Post by sk5t »

jjoonathan wrote: post #233
sk5t wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with the return of some simple political will Gun control is a "third rail" in many political jurisdictions in the USA. Many Americans will vote against any agent who would disarm them; those voters are unlikely to see disarming to diminish the (very roughly) ~0.000001% chance of death by mass shooting as a sensible--or even Constitutional--trade.

Right, and they see their weapons as insurance against being the victims of a socialist famine like the ones that killed 100 million people last century. If you want to viscerally understand their viewpoint, call to mind the reaction that you have when someone in the conservative camp goes "Look, it's snowing, so much for global warming!" -- and then substitute "snowing" for "school shooting" and "global warming" for…

I didn't mean to imply any particular motive to the pro-gun / pro-2A camp. Like, I personally tend to think most live in somewhat rural areas, and value firearms as tools for self-defense and deterrence--in areas where there is zilch, zero chance one could scream or even effectively telephone for help from the police or a neighbor--plus hunting, protecting livestock, and the like. Surely there are some Americans who dream of resisting government oppression, but surely even the able-minded among them understand the pure futility, plus the crushing societal and economic collapse that would come with it.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#392

Post by gfodor »

rdtsc wrote: post #274
umvi wrote: post #34

It would be better if cloudflare terminated service for all media outlets. Every time you turn a mass shooting into a national spectacle, it inspires copycats in rapid succession as we've just seen. Mass shootings (generally) don't kill that many people. They are scary, yes, but not that deadly (statistically). Keep it local news, don't publish the name of the killer, basically keep the story away from the front line…

> By turning every mass shooting into a hysterical emotional maelstrom, you signal a green light to all the other potential shooters that this is how you get attention. I can see that point. There is also something odd about what shootings get publicized and which don't. Some shooters, seem to be getting more media attention than others. Is it the manifestos or maybe the number of victims? I remember the Congressiona…

At the risk of staying the obvious, the various media outlets in the US have all by this point joined either the red or blue team and now report only on those incidents which could harm the other team in the eyes of the public.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#393

Post by reuben364 »

rand_r wrote: post #263

The best argument I’ve heard for being a free speech absolutist is that speech is the highest form of thought in Humans. We think via dialogue. We arrive at the truth via dialogue. Criminalizing free speech limits our ability to think and arrive at the truth, and that can’t be good for anyone long term. I haven’t heard of a good rebuttal to the above reasoning.

I agree with the premise, not the argument

We can arrive at truth through dialogue, but dialog can also lead to propagation and affirmation of misinformation. One does not necessarily converge on truth.

Though, to entrust any government to control free speech to that end is an entire different point.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#394

Post by smithproxy »

s_Hogg wrote: post #358
smithproxy wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be fooled. It's not a virtuous move. It's a business decision. If they wanted to be virtuous, they'd start working with groups to solve the problem--counteracting radicalization.

I'm aware of that but nonetheless believe it's a step in the right direction and that they should be congratulated. I don't think this means anyone should give them an easier time as a result. Countering radicalisation involves the use of both carrot and stick where services like Cloudflare and others are involved.

> it's a step in the right direction

How? It does nothing to solve the problem. It simply kicks the can down the road.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#396

Post by khawkins »

word-reader wrote: post #199

This post repeatedly refers to 8chan as "lawless" and "unmoderated" but it is neither. As a whole, it is a public website subject to US law, complete with DMCA and search warrant contact forms. The sitewide rule is that all content must comply with US law. The media also keeps saying 8chan, 8chan, 8chan over and over, when it is really just the one most popular board ("pol") that is being discussed. But there are hun…

Actions like these unite communities under a common threat. Voices of moderation and internal division is reduced as they fight for their common space. The people who are saying "it's us v.s. society at large" are lionized and the people who want to criticize violent or hateful acts are ignored.

The community will find a way around this, there's no doubt. But now they're more radical and more threatened than they used to be. The harder it is to get to the community the more insulated and radical it becomes as fewer outside voices come in. Only the most dedicated continue on, and those are the people you want to deradicalize more than anyone.

These boards have been open to everyone, if others wanted to talk to these people and provide counter arguments they're free to do so. It's the only thing that's going to go a long way in dissolving toxicity in these communities.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#397

Post by RaceWon »

ALittleLight wrote: post #309
rand_r wrote: post #263

The best argument I’ve heard for being a free speech absolutist is that speech is the highest form of thought in Humans. We think via dialogue. We arrive at the truth via dialogue. Criminalizing free speech limits our ability to think and arrive at the truth, and that can’t be good for anyone long term. I haven’t heard of a good rebuttal to the above reasoning.

To extend your metaphor, imagine that part of humanity's brain is engaged in thinking about the abduction and exploitation of children. Another part is lionizing mass murderers and advocating for copy cats. A different part of the brain is contemplating the state of the art for financial and cyber crimes etc. If you come to believe that the time humanity's brain spends occupied with these pursuits leads to negative r…

> Really, what, but the amusement of edgy people, does humanity gain from entertaining these dark conversations

I write short stories, some are EXTREMELY dark. None deal with murder but I have done a rape story... well the two were lovers and he thought she wanted to be raped, so he did it. But still very dark no?

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#398

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

So Cloudflare went from hosting everything that's not illegal, to kicking people out who claim that Cloudflare supports their ideology, to kicking people out with less than a day's notice on a Sunday if a forum attracts user-generated content that Cloudflare doesn't like - and the rules for content that they don't tolerate may change on similarly short notice with no warning before they decide to terminate your account (most likely based on "has enough media outrage happened").

Also, they stated that they were "cooperating around monitoring potential hate sites on our network", which makes me wonder what kind of monitoring we're talking about here, and whether and where else they share traffic that they're proxying.

Regardless of what you think about 8chan (I'm not familiar with the site but there seems to be consensus that it's a cesspool), these points are interesting to note.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#399

Post by internet_user »

rfrey wrote: post #383
internet_user wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, the only bad speech is speech you personally dislike?

Of course it will be true on its face that "bad speech" will be disliked by the people claiming it is bad. This phrase suggests that ALL speech that non-absolutists dislike will be categorized as harmful enough to society to be disallowed. That is a view nobody I've ever met holds. I am not a free speech absolutist. I believe 99.9999% of speech I dislike, even speech I dislike intensely and believe is harmful to soci…

OK, so what is the "0.00001%" speech that justifies prison sentence ?

Ordering someone to shoot you? Aka "clear and imminent threat" ?

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#400

Post by snowwrestler »

2bitencryption wrote: post #315
busymom0 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telecom companies like AT&T aren't providing "essential service". Being able to call/text someone is not a "essential service". Yet they are not supposed to ban people because they are merely the carrier.

> Telecom companies like AT&T aren't providing "essential service". ...according to Title II, yes, they absolutely are. https://newnetworks.com/titleii/

The FCC just ruled that Internet service is not a Title II service.
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