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US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

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Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#391

Post by debatem1 »

henrikschroder wrote: post #350
TallGuyShort wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't even find out what stuff costs beforehand either. I had to get a blood test. I had gotten burned before where my insurance said they covered a physical, but it turns out their definition of a physical didn't include the doctor's definition, which included blood tests. So before I had my blood drawn, I asked them to tell me what the tests would cost if my insurance didn't cover it. "It depends on how it's coded,…

I was at the dentist today because I managed to chip a tooth yesterday, and needed it fixed. Before the procedure, they asked if I wanted an estimate, I said sure, and got one in a minute. The dental industry works the same as the medical, I have a half-useless insurance that covers too little, and out-of-pocket expenses are always higher than you expect. But if they can do estimates before a procedure, why the hell…

Just to put my cautionary experience in on that, I woke up after some oral surgery about ten years ago to find out that my estimate was worthless and the actual cost was twice what was estimated. I was fortunate enough to have recently gotten a good paying job and could cover it, but it was certainly a shock.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#392

Post by AnthonyMouse »

JamesBarney wrote: post #385
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, but then we'd just be dominated by states like Minnesota, California, Delaware, New York, etc. Basically, ginormous pools of money would start to build in the old Union and out on the west coast. But almost everyone in the middle would be hosed. Not really. States like California are net payers, but only just, because they have large diverse populations and end up getting back almost all of what they pay in.…

I think you have an incorrect understanding of pork barrel spending. Of that $10,000 that you put into the government. $6000 go to social security/medicare. $2,000 to military+veterans. Then another $600 to debt. And the remaining $1,400 goes to education/food+ agro/education/transportation/housing/science/energy/internal affairs. I don't know how much of that is pork barrel spending but I doubt it's more than a coup…

You're using national average math, not net-recipient state math. It's rarely the case that states that receive more than they pay do so as a result of social security. It would also be pretty hard for a state's net receipts to be interest on the debt absent some kind of sovereign wealth fund that held US treasuries, which most US states don't have.

Moreover, the military budget is where a sizable chunk of the pork lives.

And the problem isn't just pork, it's the general inefficiency of hoovering up your state's money and then sending it back with strings attached. Federal programs can require hot garbage like designated "affordable housing" (i.e. cordoning off a slum to concentrate poverty in) as a condition for housing grants, or "teach to the test" education programs like NCLB. It's not a stretch to claim that the states could be better off with less money but without the strings attached.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#393

Post by [deleted] »

bilbo0s wrote: post #146
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, a typical state college is closer to $10,000. Yes, it's not Ivy League, but it does the job.

I wonder if 10 thousand is a lot for undergraduate education to a German, or Austrian, or French person? EDIT: Doh! Just checked the cost of undergrad in some of those nations. Umm, Yeah. I guess if I were a German or French guy, I'd likely find tuition levels in the US a bit outrageous.

[deleted]

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#394

Post by smueller1234 »

tathougies wrote: post #264
bilbo0s wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if 10 thousand is a lot for undergraduate education to a German, or Austrian, or French person? EDIT: Doh! Just checked the cost of undergrad in some of those nations. Umm, Yeah. I guess if I were a German or French guy, I'd likely find tuition levels in the US a bit outrageous.

You'd probably also find the amount of amenities provided by universities ridiculous. I mean we had a free olympic pool and rented puppies to pet before finals. Its no wonder it costs so much

I found a stark difference in German and American higher education that the German higher education system treats you like an adult, including accountability for your own schedule, whereas in comparison American universities appear an extension of middle school. Carefully created and controlled curriculum, etc. That's in no way a statement about the academic merit in either direction, of course.

This is very much aligned with the direct cost and services provided. Attending German universities is virtually free, and under certain conditions, the country will give you very cheap loans to pay for your living expenses. My spouse had a single digit number of thousands of Euros to pay back after graduating.

PhD students are often underpaid employees and are treated that way (for better or worse) instead of being considered as and treated like students. This doesn't imply one is preferable to another, just that it is a continuation of treating them with and expecting a higher degree of maturity and independence.

An upshot for me was that when I applied to my first industry job, the time as a PhD student was treated as work experience.

So yeah, I think you're spot on in that many folks from continental Europe would find the amenities bewildering. :)

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#395

Post by orwin »

bilbo0s wrote: post #146
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, a typical state college is closer to $10,000. Yes, it's not Ivy League, but it does the job.

I wonder if 10 thousand is a lot for undergraduate education to a German, or Austrian, or French person? EDIT: Doh! Just checked the cost of undergrad in some of those nations. Umm, Yeah. I guess if I were a German or French guy, I'd likely find tuition levels in the US a bit outrageous.

Ten years ago in France, it was around 279€ and since my familly was in the lowest quintile, it was covered by the state. But i've hear that the true cost was in fact 3.8K€ per student, up to 7K per student if you count lodging. Or around 10K$. For "Elite" schools the upfront cost is between 7K and 15K, and you can add 2K for the true cost (paid in taxes, VAT or income) and 3k for lodging. I say elite but the best school in France for math is actually a public university (ranked 5th in the world or around that), and you can get this for almost free if your parents are poor.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#396

Post by [deleted] »

Someone1234 wrote: post #19

I moved to the US from a country with socialised medicine. When you include premiums then taxes in both were roughly similar if not a little higher in the US (ignoring cost of living differences). But even that doesn't include the real sting on the tail of US medicine. You pay a fairly high health insurance premium, but if you actually need health services you then pay again through the nose even with insurance "disc…

[deleted]

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#397

Post by CalRobert »

Someone1234 wrote: post #19

I moved to the US from a country with socialised medicine. When you include premiums then taxes in both were roughly similar if not a little higher in the US (ignoring cost of living differences). But even that doesn't include the real sting on the tail of US medicine. You pay a fairly high health insurance premium, but if you actually need health services you then pay again through the nose even with insurance "disc…

When I looked up private health insurance in Ireland I kept thinking "gee that's not much better than the US". Then I realized I was looking at an _annual_ premium.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#398

Post by Tsubasachan »

kradroy wrote: post #158
morsma wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's the opposite. I moved from Denmark to the US, and I pay around $400 in health insurance premiums (health, eye, and dental) for a whole family. In Denmark, only health is covered, so for eye and dental many go out-of-country to get it cheap. The US is much cheaper for all health insurances, except if your poor. Obama tried to fix that, but made it worse and more expensive for everyone (socialism).

If you're employed and your employer is generous, then your insurance premiums can be inexpensive (low double digits per month if you're single, low triple digits if you have dependents) . My wild speculation is that most employers aren't as generous as they could be. If you're "poor", insurance is actually cheap, because that's when you get public insurance. However, if you're just middle income, health care is a no…

Yeah I don't know how it is in the US but in my country everyone is employed on a temporary basis. The days of actually getting a stable job for life are long gone. Getting a two year contract is the best you can get.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#399

Post by kmlx »

exodus_de wrote: post #299
maxxxxx wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way is your comment about price fixing relevant? I don't care if the lower price is because of price fixing or not.

Yes, you don't care because you're completely ignorant. How would you feel about your job if I set the price for your wages at 12€/hour? Price fixing causes shortages and/or lowers quality. I hope you don't have to go to a German hospital and catch yourself some MRSA, or wait months in agony to get an MRI to diagnose your neurological disorder, or get an appointment with basically any specialist. Because that's the r…

mate, the health situation in the US is a joke. the US is less healthy than Oman and Slovenia.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#400

Post by enonevets »

fre3k wrote: post #344
bzbarsky wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's odd. Dentists, unlike doctors, will in my experience just give you a price if you ask for it... Maybe this varies state to state?

They used to but it's dwindling. A friend of mine is a dentist and he said when he first graduated from dental school some 15 years ago, his father and his practice dealt directly with the patient and had a list of all of their prices on their website and in their office. As customers increasingly wanted to have their insurance cover dental they had fewer and fewer people paying out of pocket and going through insura…

At my dental office, they can tell you the total cost without insurance which is the maximum they would charge for any procedure. If you paid in cash in full, they would do a discount (for non-insured).

For those insured, it depended on the insurance you had but they would give you a rough estimate based on the plan you had (mostly because they can’t be 100% certain what the insurance will cover down to the exact dollar amount.

In my experience the estimate is often off but close enough that I am not worried I’d owe an insane amount afterwards.

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