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The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

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391–400 of 402 posts

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#391
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so I'm trying to get my head around what you mean by a fact. You've said: > Michelson and Morley had a particular experimental setup and procedure and recorded particular numbers when they ran the experiment. I believe that the facts you're referring to must be on page 685 of this document: http://www.orgonelab.org/EtherDrift/MorleyMiller1905.pdf Can sense be made of it without first embracing the theory, for exa…

> I believe that the facts you're referring to must be on page 685 of this document The azimuths and wavelengths at the top of that page are facts, yes. Also, the description on the preceding pages of how the experiment was conducted contains plenty of facts. The rest of p. 685 after the azimuths and wavelengths is all interpretation using a theoretical model.

I would call the first half of the page facts of optics, and the second half of the page facts of aether flow theory. The former are only true if you already accept some theory with sufficient machinery to map the device readout to a number corresponding with the concept 'wavelength'. And the latter are only true if you accept both optics and the aether theory that was popular at the time.

I see that you're trying to get something to stand on, some objective and unchanging reality to hold constant while new theories come and go--and I don't deny you its existence, but I don't see how statements about it can be encoded without making reference the theories in use by the experimenter.

Suppose that later these results need to be translated into the language of a new theory in order for them to be communicated with future generations (who may not know what a wavelength is). Once translated, would they not be new facts, made of new words and new numbers and true in a new theory?

There are alternatives, but they seem awfully problematic to me.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#392
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe that the facts you're referring to must be on page 685 of this document The azimuths and wavelengths at the top of that page are facts, yes. Also, the description on the preceding pages of how the experiment was conducted contains plenty of facts. The rest of p. 685 after the azimuths and wavelengths is all interpretation using a theoretical model.

I would call the first half of the page facts of optics, and the second half of the page facts of aether flow theory. The former are only true if you already accept some theory with sufficient machinery to map the device readout to a number corresponding with the concept 'wavelength'. And the latter are only true if you accept both optics and the aether theory that was popular at the time. I see that you're trying to…

> I would call the first half of the page facts of optics, and the second half of the page facts of aether flow theory.

There is no such thing as "facts of a theory". Theories are not facts. I don't understand why you persist in talking about these two different things as if they were the same.

> I don't see how statements about it can be encoded without making reference the theories in use by the experimenter.

Huh? The portions I already referred to as giving facts do just that. You don't have to have any particular theory to understand what those portions are describing. What's the problem?

> Suppose that later these results need to be translated into the language of a new theory in order for them to be communicated with future generations (who may not know what a wavelength is).

The word "wavelength" doesn't occur anywhere in the description of how the experimental apparatus was set up, how the observations were made, and what the observations were (as opposed to theoretical model-based descriptions).

I think you're making this a lot harder than it needs to be by refusing to distinguish between factual descriptions of an experiment and theoretical interpretations of the results.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#393
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would call the first half of the page facts of optics, and the second half of the page facts of aether flow theory. The former are only true if you already accept some theory with sufficient machinery to map the device readout to a number corresponding with the concept 'wavelength'. And the latter are only true if you accept both optics and the aether theory that was popular at the time. I see that you're trying to…

> I would call the first half of the page facts of optics, and the second half of the page facts of aether flow theory. There is no such thing as "facts of a theory". Theories are not facts. I don't understand why you persist in talking about these two different things as if they were the same. > I don't see how statements about it can be encoded without making reference the theories in use by the experimenter. Huh?…

Right below the word "results" is a table which correlates asmuths to "wavelengths" which I believe is a measure of how out-of-phase the arms of the interferometer were.

Yes, it's simpler to just assume that reality as you see it is full of facts that can be made sense of directly, but that's what prompted Planck's university adviser to claim that there was essentially nothing new to discover in physics. If you allow things to be "just true" without taking into account the things that make them true, you'll never take the kind of creative step that we see in Copernicus, Einstein, or Planck (despite his adviser's recommendations).

Scientific advancement happens when somebody faces a set of immutable facts and decides which one needs to become mutable in order for the rest to become more useful. If facts are flattened down to primitives, there is no underlying structure to aid in that decision.

And if course there is such a thing as "a fact of". '2 + 2 = 4' is a fact of arithmetic, 'things fall towards massive other things' is a fact of gravity, and 'Harry Potter is a Wizard' is a fact of that particular universe.

The dangerous notion that I'm trying to dispel is that there is any other sort--a raw fact that is portable across contexts.

You yourself seem like a pretty smart cookie, so I don't worry about you, but generally speaking I find that people who prefer to deal in absolutes are susceptible to manipulation by relativists such as myself. If I can manufacture a fact and insert it into your universe, you're kind of stuck with it because you treat them as out-of-scope for reconsideration.

If we allow science and authority to become synonymous--which the author of this article would have us do, we commit a similarly permanent act--one which shuts the door on advancement of the sort I've described to above.

I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong. I'm trying to show you that your faith in the persistent and portable utility of facts is unjustified and represents both a creativity damper and an unnecessary attack surface--attack surface that would be exploited by maintainers of the status quo.

Or I would try to convince you of that, if I could get us past the unjustified part.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#394
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would call the first half of the page facts of optics, and the second half of the page facts of aether flow theory. There is no such thing as "facts of a theory". Theories are not facts. I don't understand why you persist in talking about these two different things as if they were the same. > I don't see how statements about it can be encoded without making reference the theories in use by the experimenter. Huh?…

Right below the word "results" is a table which correlates asmuths to "wavelengths" which I believe is a measure of how out-of-phase the arms of the interferometer were. Yes, it's simpler to just assume that reality as you see it is full of facts that can be made sense of directly, but that's what prompted Planck's university adviser to claim that there was essentially nothing new to discover in physics. If you allow…

> Right below the word "results" is a table which correlates asmuths to "wavelengths"

Ah, I see; yes, the word "wavelengths" does appear there, and it also appears on the previous page, where they say: "the length of the path of a ray in our apparatus was 3224 centimetres, in which distance there are contained 5.5 x 10^7 wave-lengths of sodium light". So "wavelengths" here refers to the calculated wavelength of a particular energy level transition in sodium atoms that was used to provide the light in the interferometer. So the wavelengths in the table at the top of page 5 are measured numbers (the sizes of the interference fringes observed), translated into a particular choice of units (units of sodium energy level transition wavelengths). The numbers themselves are facts, but the choice of units is theoretically motivated, yes--a more theoretically neutral choice of units would be something like centimeters.

> it's simpler to just assume that reality as you see it is full of facts that can be made sense of directly, but that's what prompted Planck's university adviser to claim that there was essentially nothing new to discover in physics

I don't see this at all. It was precisely particular facts--facts that did not fit Newtonian theory--that prompted the development of relativity and quantum mechanics as better theories, that accounted for those facts. The whole idea of facts not fitting a theory requires you to have a concept of "facts" that does not depend on which theory you choose.

> Scientific advancement happens when somebody faces a set of immutable facts and decides which one needs to become mutable in order for the rest to become more useful.

Again, I think you are conflating "fact" with "theory" and hence you are confusing yourself. Here is how I would state what I think you are trying to say here: scientific advancement happens when somebody faces a set of facts that do not fit any currently accepted theory, and comes up with a new theory whose predictions match those facts. No facts change during this process; only theories change.

> If I can manufacture a fact and insert it into your universe

I have no idea how you would go about doing that except by lying about something you observed. Which you could do--people have certainly lied to other people in the past and had their lies accepted, at least for a while--but I don't think that's a problem with people being too absolutist about facts. I think it's a problem with (a) some people lying, and (b) other people not being good at detecting lies.

And I certainly don't see how thinking of facts as theory-dependent helps a person to detect lies. Rather, it makes it harder to detect lies, because the whole concept of "lies" gets muddled: there is no objective truth, just different people's theories, so how can you say that this other person who manufactured a fact and inserted it into your universe was wrong? He was just telling his theory, and every theory is just as good as every other one.

The only way to escape this merry-go-round and defend yourself against this kind of manipulation is to have a concept of "facts" that is independent of your choice of theory, which allows you to have the concept of "this person is lying to me so I shouldn't believe what they say". How can you even have that concept at all if facts are theory-dependent?

> If we allow science and authority to become synonymous

Which is certainly not what I am advocating. In fact I'm advocating precisely the opposite, as you can see from other posts I've made elsewhere in this thread. Scientists trying to present science as an authority is a problem; and the fact that the author of the article wants to do that means he's wrong.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#395
post #51
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the common man supposed to know that there isn't anything strange in the vaccine? Governments have forcibly sterilised segments of their population before.

Ask your doctor about it instead of listening to a Facebook group.

Not everyone has a doctor.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people put signs up like that because there's a culture of anti-fact, anti-science, generally anti-thought growing and becoming more vocal and a sign or bumper sticker might make people feel like they're fighting back. I admire science, I'm aware that part of science is challenging itself and new understanding can unravel previous notion. I don't really know of any science enthusiasts that want to burn the re…

It’s really anti-authoritarianism. When people have lost faith in every institution, it is hard to trust the govt. to work nicely with massive corporations to inject needles in their children, especially in an environment where half the kids aren’t living in iron lungs.

It's seems like a dumb brand of anti-authoritarianism. I think you're right, but so much of it is self defeating if it weren't actually causing problems it'd be comical. It's also a weird reaction to corporate distrust since a great many of these people are conservative, and the GOP seems slightly more up the butt of the mega corps.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#397
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right below the word "results" is a table which correlates asmuths to "wavelengths" which I believe is a measure of how out-of-phase the arms of the interferometer were. Yes, it's simpler to just assume that reality as you see it is full of facts that can be made sense of directly, but that's what prompted Planck's university adviser to claim that there was essentially nothing new to discover in physics. If you allow…

> Right below the word "results" is a table which correlates asmuths to "wavelengths" Ah, I see; yes, the word "wavelengths" does appear there, and it also appears on the previous page, where they say: "the length of the path of a ray in our apparatus was 3224 centimetres, in which distance there are contained 5.5 x 10^7 wave-lengths of sodium light". So "wavelengths" here refers to the calculated wavelength of a par…

> a more theoretically neutral choice of units would be something like centimeters

Would it? A centimeter is defined in terms of the speed of light.

This isn't me being nitpicky, everything is defined in terms of something else, and to hold a justified belief (I won't call it a fact) requires the ability to place the belief in context with other justified beliefs to see:

- If any contracictions arise

- If the new belief can be used to justify other beliefs in the system.

These systems of belief form something like a directed graph (edge=justifies), and I suspect that they are kind of clumpy. Like, the majority of the beliefs only justify their immediate neighbors in the clump (which I won't call a theory). Rare are the edges in this graph that point from one clump to another, these are achieved by experiment. The experiment we have been discussing forms an edge between one clump (optics/electrodynamics) and another clump (motion). It was contact with "the facts" that allowed this bridge to be built.

I believe you would call whichever clump is more justified "the facts" and whichever one is less justified "the model being tested".

I suspect it is impossible, though it may just be devilishly hard, to know the difference between a fact, a very well justified belief, and a strongly held oppinion. None of the research I have seen indicates that humans are good at that making this kind of judgement. So we should always be a little suspicious that something that we perceive as a fact is actually one of the other two. If you encounter an apparent contradiction out there in the wild, one approach would be to tighten your grip on your justified beliefs, treat them as facts, and then call the newcomer a lie. But there are alternatives, which I will discuss in a moment.

When I claimed that people could manipulate absolutists by injecting "facts" into the absolutist's "universe", perhaps I should have said that what they are injecting is beliefs that are likely to be misapprehended as facts, and they get injected into the system of justified beliefs that is held by the victim. For more on these techniques, see: rhetoric. (Which isn't evil by the way, as some like to paint it. Whether or not the audience accepts the edits permanently, all effective communication involves the deliberate manipulation of this justification lattice in your audiences' mind.)

Relativists (or at least myself, since I have insight into only one mind), have more options when they run into something that is dresseed up like a fact, but causes contradictions. The interloper could be:

- A lie

- A justifiable belief, but one that is justifiable in a system that is inferior to mine

- A justifiable belief, but one that is justifiable in a system that is superior to mine

I'm constantly reworking what counts as true according to my belief system, so if a lie slips in it's not as big of a deal. Unless it's a very crafty lie, I'm likely to have edited it out in a few weeks anyway (since it neither justifies nore is justified by other beliefs in the system). Most of my cycles go into evaluating whether these things that appear to me as facts form a system that is better or worse than some alternative, and to which my system is itself an alternative (hence: alternative facts).

Here "better or worse" could mean a lot of things. It could have to do with contact with reality (i.e. I want a maximally coherent system) It could have to do with beauty It could have to do with something less lofty, like whether it helps me secure food for myself tonight

Both myself and the absolutist must take something on faith. The absolutist takes it for granted that his facts are the facts. I take for granted my ability to chose a "best" belief system (which I call a set of theories, but I'm open to a new term) There's a good article called "The Raft and The Pyramid" (https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/kk3n/epistclass/Sosa%20-%20R...) which shows that these two approaches are equivalent in their ability to bring us closer to the truth. But they are not equivalent in how they affect our behavior.

The relativist may consider structural details of proposed facts, while the absolutist is inclined to reject them outright. This has consequences all over the place, many of which are the problems the author (of the original article) indicates. Absolutists don't consider a candidate fact in the context of its enclosing theory--er, clump of justified beliefs--so they don't get a picture of the potenial richness of the world they are rejecting, lies are just lies and that's it. They are not accustomed to evaluating the merit of whole alternative systems, so if they are delusional they're likely to just keep calling things lies and dig there heels in further. It's not lies that we should be worried about, they're going to happen, it's persistent, contageous delusion of the sort whose entry is a one-way trip. As I'll argue later, familiarizing people with the equipment of relativism (i.e. my interpretation of Feyerabend--I'll confess to not having read the whole book) is the antidote.

To answer your question:

> How can you say that this other person who manufactured a fact and inserted it into your universe was wrong?

The interloper fact (unless it's a very bad lie) will have some set of beliefs that justify it. To use my original language for a moment, every statement has a theory where it is true (that's what theories are, systems for evaluating the truth or falsity of statements and assigning labels to phenomena)--but there is no guarantee that those theories are useful. So you set your worldview down--which is scary the first time you do it--and you start importing those beliefs, and you also import the beliefs that justify them, and you keep pulling on that thread untill you see just how big of a world you're dismissing by calling the interloper fact a lie. If that world is not good as the one you set down, you go back and decide that it's not for you.

So I guess the answer is that you can't, because although it's wrong in your universe, it's right in some other. But you can still reject it, and having gone in there and checked it out first, you may now understand more about this would-be liar. You may be able to show them a better way, or failing that you may be able to work out a compromise (in behavior) that doesn't require epistemic agreement. You may also come away with a bit of respect for the opposing theory, and rather than dismissing it outright, you might reconsider it from time to time.

This only works, of course, if you know you can make it back out. Otherwise there might be a system of thought so insidious that once you import it for examination, you then can't leave. So when I go exploring other belief systems (like yours, and like the author's) the only "fact" that I take with me is this: All facts are potentially mutable, except this one. It's that safety belt that gives me this reflex for opposing your position about facts.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#398
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right below the word "results" is a table which correlates asmuths to "wavelengths" Ah, I see; yes, the word "wavelengths" does appear there, and it also appears on the previous page, where they say: "the length of the path of a ray in our apparatus was 3224 centimetres, in which distance there are contained 5.5 x 10^7 wave-lengths of sodium light". So "wavelengths" here refers to the calculated wavelength of a par…

> a more theoretically neutral choice of units would be something like centimeters Would it? A centimeter is defined in terms of the speed of light. This isn't me being nitpicky, everything is defined in terms of something else, and to hold a justified belief (I won't call it a fact) requires the ability to place the belief in context with other justified beliefs to see: - If any contracictions arise - If the new bel…

> Would it? A centimeter is defined in terms of the speed of light.

It's defined in terms of the length of the path traveled by light in 9192631770/299792458 ticks of a cesium clock under particular conditions. In other words, it's defined in terms of facts that can be observed and measured without having to adopt any particular theory. This definition makes the "speed of light in vacuum" a universal constant equal to 299792458 meters per second, but that does not change anything about its being based on facts that can be observed and measured without having to adopt any particular theory.

> I believe you would call whichever clump is more justified "the facts" and whichever one is less justified "the model being tested".

Nope. Nothing you've said here has anything to do with the fact-model distinction. In each of your "clumps" there will be both facts and models.

> what counts as true according to my belief system

Your belief system is a theoretical model. Does that help?

The rest of your post is just more of the same confusion, and at this point I don't see much use in arguing about it any further. I've made my position as clear as I can.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was common for people in the US to reject the idea of smoking as a cause of lung cancer until like the 1980s. Scientific consensus on this fact was reached in the 60s and was suspected for a while before that. Yet, it took like 40 years for the public to agree. You're exaggerating. It did not take until after the year 2000 for the public to believe that smoking causes cancer.

No I'm not... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3894634/ > The public relations campaign -- which would extend for over 40 years -- was designed with the goal of reassuring the public, especially current smokers, that the question of whether smoking caused harm was an “open controversy” (1, 4, 14). > A poll conducted in 1966 found only 40% of Americans recognizing smoking as a major cause of cancer, while…

Wow. Yikes!

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#400
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d argue that this is, in fact, a failing of the language of description, and that going back and refactoring terms and systematizing the folk knowledge of a given field would go a long way towards fixing the public attitudes towards that field. We should give more respect to people who make existing concepts easier to understand, or simpler and cheaper to prove or demonstrate. Then maybe we wouldn’t have to spend s…

I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding the problem. We do have a problem with nomenclature being fractured, even within fields, never mind between them. But that's not the problem. The problem is that when you get deep enough into how things work, things just get really complex and they stop behaving in ways and patterns that humans experience the world. They end up being things that cannot be simplified down…

Sorry, I didn't see your reply to this until just now. I hope that you get a chance to see mine:

I have to disagree that nomenclature being fractured is not the problem. Within any given field, it is true that as you go deep enough into how things work, it gets complicated and hectic. However, as we have done throughout the entire written history of humanity, we have a special set of tools to help us engage with those complications, and reduce them down to complexes of simple objects whose behavior we understand - mathematics. If we are unable to reach deeply enough within a single field, it is because the tools we teach are not up to the task.

A large part of the issue is that the mathematics in common use in these disciplines, and at the elementary level, is in need of an upgrade. That upgrade is in the process of being performed (category theory), and as we learn to apply it in more and more fields, concepts and processes that seem deep, difficult, and essentially different turn out to be related in mathematically precise 'analogies'. This means that the same set of 'deep concepts', applied with different sets base objects and different operators that obey the same rules, will unfold into some of the main ideas in each discipline. Baez's Physics, Logic, Topology, Computation, a Rosetta stone is a good example of the beginnings of this, but googling 'applied category theory' or 'applied category theory course azimuth' ought to bring you some interesting extra links.

More generally, what we see of as specific processes within a particular field, when viewed through the right lenses, I expect we will find are instead instantiations of much more general processes that are the same across most, if not all, fields of discipline. How will we convince everyone to use these different naming systems and toolsets? Because those people who do use them will perform better, and the logic of competition will pull the educational system and society along with them.

If you disagree, I'd love to hear more about it. Nomenclature and Education are near and dear to me - I always jump and an opportunity to discuss with someone who does so in good faith.

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