I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…
At racism. Easy call for me.
Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
391–400 of 789 posts
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#392Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except that they aren’t necessarily highly unpopular. They are just outside of the political norms that happen to be popular within a small class in control of the platforms.
If they aren't highly unpopular then there should be a demand and market for services/platforms that do allow those opinions. Even though not as large, another company/service should be able to fill the void.
I have seen rumors about us gov and other govs pressuring cc authorities to do things in certain ways as well, however my senator says there is no proof rumored pressure changed anything in one case that I write about.
there is demand and market for many things that the CC companies make difficult or impossible, the problem is the CC companies make it difficult or impossible to provide to those markets.
Threats from the CC places make many places move to the side of err caution and further marginalize groups. In some cases simply removing some of the banks and such that will do business with some groups gives the few banks that do leverage to charge exorbitant fees and people live with the constant threat that their fees will go up, or the bank will give up and they will have no provider at all.
This changes published expression even when there is an option.
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#393Earlier quoted context omitted.
The takeaway from that article I got was that companies are handing out credit to anybody who wants it- and some people take advantage of that when they want to go out with a bang. Hellfire would rain down on any Network (Visa, MC, Amex, Discover) who thought about refusing to process firearm purchases. The NRA, any republican, and liberals like myself who support fundamental rights would be rightly pissed that a har…
This is already starting to happen. Where's the hellfire? https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/card-payment-gu... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/19/business/banks-gun-sales.... https://nypost.com/2018/06/11/gun-businesses-scrambling-afte... https://www.marketwatch.com/story/could-credit-card-companie...
I'm not sure, but I can offer two hypothesizes that aren't mutually exclusive.
1) Gun owners have been marginalized on social media and their hellfire is going unnoticed on alternative platforms, or simply isn't promoted by algorithmic timelines.
2) Gun owners are already predisposed to purchasing guns with cash, for privacy reasons, so many don't feel particularly inconvenienced by this development.
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#394Earlier quoted context omitted.
Bell Telephone was a peer-to-peer communications infrastructure, not a publishing platform. To the extent that it did provide a medium for publication (the phonebook), they absolutely had standards for what could be published. Were those standards arbitrary? Was the Jewish Defamation League allowed to have their business listed, or advertise?
Part of this is that we haven't quite figured out what "publishing platform" means. It's not like a printing press (renting time on machine which applies ink) but also not like a magazine (with an editor pushing a view, his name on page 2). Facebook certainly carries a lot of peer-to-peer communications, but wades deep into deciding what's acceptable. Yet unlike magazines, which were always numerous, they have someth…
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#395Earlier quoted context omitted.
This brings an interesting workaround to mind. What if they register their ideology as a religion? Iirc it is a protected class in US so they cannot be banned due to it. However people getting banned like this rarely are inventive enough to figure out ways to fight back.
>What if they register their ideology as a religion? Iirc it is a protected class in US so they cannot be banned due to it. The thing about the law is that it doesn't operate like code. You can't just cast (ideology) and expect it to work within the framework of law, because the law is (luckily) interpreted by people who expect it to be taken advantage of by the unscrupulous. Otherwise, literally every corporation wo…
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#396Earlier quoted context omitted.
> For example the homicide rate in Japan is much lower than in Jamaica; from this it follows that Jamaicans are on average more homicidal than Japanese. That's a negative generalisation. It's also true. That is not true. The fact you presented might be true, but the statement that "Jamaicans are on average more homicidal than Japanese" is not identical to the fact about homicide rates. Your statement implies that tho…
> Your statement implies that those two groups of people are somehow differing in temperament such that one has more violent tendencies than the other. I don't buy that, today many say things like "Men are on average more prone to violence than women" without intending it in an essentialist way. So then why would "Jamaicans are on average more prone to violence than Japanese" have to be essentialist? The interesting…
However, I think that it is possible to contextualize fact-based-generalizations to remove sexist/racism from them. If you say 'society conditions men to be less emotionally open, thus men end up being more violent, see these psych studies', that's all well and good. On a similar note, if you say 'Jamaicans on average grow up in higher poverty with worse education, and more end up involved in crime', that contextualizes it to show that you are not speaking about the nature of the people, but rather about specific situations and facts.
A final factor you're ignoring is that there's always a much broader social context through which your generalization is interpreted. "Black fathers are lazy" is a more racist generalization than "white fathers are lazy" because the first has racist context associated with it, and the second has much less of such a context. This context may be global or regional, though with the dominance of american media, that context is basically global at this point.
On a similar note, anything to do with a specific people or race needs more explicit context because there's so much racist ambient context.
> Seems like this argument is more about each side shutting down ideas they are uncomfortable with.
I am not okay with anyone stopping you from providing facts and ideas about crime in different societies, just trying to stop you from generalizing in such a way that implies one race is inferior to another. This isn't a matter of discomfort per-se, but rather a matter of us having already seen the end of the slippery slopes such talk, when weaponized as rhetoric and internalized, leads to.
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#397Earlier quoted context omitted.
Listeners are perfectly free to go elsewhere to hear racist speech — Gab exists, 4chan exists, and there are plenty of smaller sites dedicated to this as well. Insofar as they want to support someone monetarily, no one can prevent them from using Bitcoin.
This comment doesn't address my points at all. First, none of those sites are Patreon competitors. Second, I never claimed alternatives didn't exist. Third, in context it's pretty clear that Sargon is trying to insult racists. I don't know much about him, but from that clip it seems like his shtick is to get attention by making points in controversial ways. Well, mission accomplished (in every sense of the phrase). M…
> John Milton, Thomas Paine, and John Stuart Mill all made the point (in various ways) that every time you stop someone from saying or publishing an idea, you are also preventing others who want to hear or read that idea from doing so.
But no one who wants to hear or read racism is prevented from doing so — they just can't do it on Patreon. The parent's concept of free speech is fully compatible with this point, specifically because alternatives exist (and will always exist, given liberal enough laws protecting freedom of speech).
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#398Earlier quoted context omitted.
OK with that line too. Guy's a douche.
And what about when the line is you? Will that also be OK? First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me — and there was no one left to speak for me. -- Martin Niemoelle…
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#399Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I fail to see how this is the case. It does absolutely grant the power to regulate speech. I didn't say it prevented speech regulation in general. I said that it attenuated the previous regime of speech regulation. It does so by replacing it with a new one, where speech norms are determined by a tiny group of people in unelected, unreviewable positions at private companies. > The evidence really does indicate that…
Largely because the opposition did exactly that: they started deplatforming and attempting to more coercively prevent right wing views from speaking. Deplatforming grew in popularity around 2013 or 2014. Students at Brown shut down Ray Kelly's speech in 2014 [1]. We did prevent these groups from going out into the sunlight. That gave them the chance to grow in the shadows. Also, with regards to Trump, I largely see h…
I'm not a fan of de-platforming, but there's pretty decent evidence that it can be effective [1]. I'm aware of no empirical data supporting the notion that it is counter-productive. That being said, it's certainly a theoretical possibility. It could be the case that exposing ideas to the light of day robs them of their power. But then, why are conspiracy theories so persistent? Why was Alex Jones so successful, in spite of the unbelivably simplistic and falsifiable lies he was telling?
I see almost zero evidence that sunlight acts as a disinfectant for ideas that appeal to people's preconceptions, and a lot of evidence that the modern left's tactics of shaming and de-platforming are actually the most effective ways to change culture and minds. To be clear, I don't like those tactics. I think that, in the very long run, they are probably harmful. But it is hard to seriously deny their efficacy.
> Also, with regards to Trump, I largely see his election as happening despite his association with the alt right rather than because of it. It's a big liability not just for him, but the Republican party. Trump's biggest advantage wasn't anything to do with him, but the fact that Democrats had alienated manyc centrists in the leadup to the election, and fielded a candidate that lacked the enthusiasm to rally their base.
I think that's part of it. Another part of it is that Trump saw through the stalemate stable equilibrium of left/right politics in the US. He correctly surmised that there was a middle path, that activated ethnic and nationalistic identities of the right, while simultaneously stoking economic anxiety traditionally associated with the left, to form a coalition that had unanticipated electoral power.
1. https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/bjbp9d/do-social-...
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#400Earlier quoted context omitted.
The question is; where does it end? Sure, I guess you could say Patreon has the right to ban people from its service. But people have found its not easy or practical to compete with them. They've found everyone from their domain registrar to their website host to their payment processor refusing to do business with them. And at some point, that means it becomes virtually impossible to express yourself if your views a…
> And at some point, that means it becomes virtually impossible to express yourself if your views are unpopular enough. This is how free speech has always worked, though. You could always get on a soapbox in a public plaza and rant, but the potential engaged audience there is pretty small. If you wanted a real audience, even in older times you would've needed a newspaper to print your thoughts, or a publisher to help…
My favorite example is Edward R. Murrow giving an entire episode to McCarthy (unedited) to explain why he felt black listing communists was necessary.
Letters to the editor are vestigial examples of this lost chivalry.