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Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

euractiv.com

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Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#391

Post by munificent »

stale2002 wrote: post #196
munificent wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems to me that if you tax emissions strongly and uniformly enough, then at some point it has to have an impact. One way to look at that is that you're saying any market-based solution strong enough to be effective is indistinguishable from an outright ban. We could, for example, discourage smoking by putting a $500 tax on each pack of cigarettes. But at that point, you may as well stop pretending and ban it ou…

You are missing one big advantage of market based solutions. They raise revenue. For every dollar that is raised from taxing gasoline, is another dollar that can be used paying for social programs or whatever.

This can also be a strong dis-advantage because they incentivize abuse.

Look, for example, at civil seizure in the US. Police agencies are highly incentivized to do it since they get to keep the money, even when doing so is unjust.

In practice, tax-based solutions have pros and cons and you need to think about the incentives and unintended consequences that they lead to on both the enforcement and citizen sides. Law-based solutions do too, of course.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#392

Post by JoeAltmaier »

im3w1l wrote: post #333
dwaltrip wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a small number of rich people are willing to pay $100 in extra taxes to smoke a cigarette, is that really so bad? What is the rational to "letting" the rich smoke (replace with activity "X" if desired), but not everyone else? For the most part, that is what the policy effectively ends up doing, and so enacting it becomes to an implicit approval of that result. It's obviously not the only way of looking at the si…

Smoking a cigarette harms society. Rich people can afford to compensate society for the harm they inflict, so that society comes out ahead.

But do they? Or does their platinum-level insurance pay for the new lungs, which really comes out of the working-persons' pocket?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#393

Post by tom_ »

thinkling wrote: post #298
thinkling wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I share your parent's skepticism. It seems obvious that cars sold in the US are not averaging 37 MPG when the average car is roughly a RAV4 that gets 22/29.(EDIT: It occurs to me that the RAV4 may be classified as a light truck -- even so, I can go pick a passenger car...) As far as I can tell taking a quick look at your links, the difference can be in two things. First, these are fuel economy standards companies are…

Additional notes: The top 4 best-selling passenger cars are the Honda Accord and Civic, and the Toyota Camry and Corolla [1]. Their "combined city/highway" fuel efficiences are respectively 30, 34, 27, and 32 mpg for the base engine [2][3][4][5]. How can this possibly work out to 37 mpg overall? There aren't enough hybrid sales to bring that number up. [1] http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/08/july-2018-ytd-u-s-passe.…

Thanks for finding some stats. Based on the cars I see driving in the UK, I'm sure plenty of people buy cars that claim to do 55mpg, and many of those cars will actually do 55mpg. But as an average? - I'm just a bit unconvinced.

(Perhaps the mpgs were added up and divided by N? That doesn't always provide the answer you're looking for.)

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#394

Post by thedaemon »

synecdoche wrote: post #178
eanzenberg wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, production of cars (and consumerism in general) is extremely bad for carbon emissions and for the environment. Carbon emissions from the production of 1 car generally rival the lifetime emissions from the tailpipe [1]. If you have no choice but to replace an old car for new then sure, get a more efficient one. If you're replacing cars every 3 years like an average westerner, given the age of cars I see…

This is why I consider my 1990 Volvo a comparatively environmentally friendly car. Very reliable and much cheaper to maintain and repair than a new electronics laden alternative.

My 1995 Volvo 940 Wagon (Estate for you EU?) is probably the best car I've ever purchased. It's comfortable, reliable, easy to work on and doesn't drink that much gasoline. I've had new cars, old cars, fast cars, slow cars, and the Volvo is seriously my favorite. Purchased for $800 a year ago and immediately drove across the USA with it. Only issue was a short in the tail lights. :) Maybe I shouldn't be sharing this information.. I don't need them to become expensive!

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#395

Post by stephengillie »

lasc4r wrote: post #388
stephengillie wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People love to cherry pick a statistic from one European city, and ask why all of the American empire can't be like that. /s/public transportation/health care/cars/etc.

Cherry picking isn't really needed, infrastructure and health care are a disaster here. edit: For some perspective, there are 240,000 water main breaks every year in the US, wasting over 2 trillion gallons of treated drinking water. https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/cat-item/drinking-w...

These statistics are only possible in a nation that has over 240,000 water mains (or do some break more than once a year?)

A smaller nation can choose a solution that works better at smaller scales, but doesn't scare well - because they don't need it to scale much. A larger empire has fewer options.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#396

Post by thinkling »

llukas wrote: post #309
thinkling wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't saying anything about EU cars -- why are you bringing that up? I am skeptical of the 37mpg claim because it seems clear to me that the average car sold in the US isn't that efficient. What's the contradiction?

Sorry, I missed that part. I think 37mpg depends on what you actually count as a car and what goes for a light truck.

See my comment in a parallel branch for data: even the US best-selling passenger cars don’t average 37 mpg.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#397

Post by teekert »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #385
teekert wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed but it's funny that most SUVs are (what I'd call) fake SUVs. They look beefy and big but they have a 1.6 liter engine and can still only pull 1200-1400 kg (like the Hyundai ix35). And then there are the real ones that may at first glance look the same but easily pull up to or over 2400 kg (Volvo xc90 versions).

>and big but they have a 1.6 liter engine and can still only pull 1200-1400 kg This is a reflection of the vehicle platforms they're built on. You take a Civic or a Dart slap on AWD, a lift kit and extra 500-1000lb of body/interior and call it a CRV or a Cherokee and there's not much spare capacity left to haul cargo or tow trailers.

Mostly they don't even slap on AWD :)

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#398

Post by ric2b »

stephengillie wrote: post #395
lasc4r wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cherry picking isn't really needed, infrastructure and health care are a disaster here. edit: For some perspective, there are 240,000 water main breaks every year in the US, wasting over 2 trillion gallons of treated drinking water. https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/cat-item/drinking-w...

These statistics are only possible in a nation that has over 240,000 water mains (or do some break more than once a year?) A smaller nation can choose a solution that works better at smaller scales, but doesn't scare well - because they don't need it to scale much. A larger empire has fewer options.

Europe has far more people than the US, I don't know what you're on about.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#399

Post by tomaskafka »

thelaith5 wrote: post #258
xxs wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it ironic that most of welfare and subsidies actually come from the oil. Stuff like 25km of under sea tunnel leading to a town with sub 2k population is quite a common sight there. While Norway is an amazing country in many aspects, the amount of oil owned by a state company puts it in a rather unique position.

This is a great article explaining how an Iraqi was largely the mind behind putting all the oil money in a state-owned fund as to avoid the damage that oil usually had done to any country that had discovered it. https://www.ft.com/content/99680a04-92a0-11de-b63b-00144feab...

Putting all oil money into state owned fund also kinda helps the people ruling the state :)

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#400

Post by therealdrag0 »

bodas wrote: post #117
eanzenberg wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, production of cars (and consumerism in general) is extremely bad for carbon emissions and for the environment. Carbon emissions from the production of 1 car generally rival the lifetime emissions from the tailpipe [1]. If you have no choice but to replace an old car for new then sure, get a more efficient one. If you're replacing cars every 3 years like an average westerner, given the age of cars I see…

That would be fine except that cars release poison into the air, old cars especially. Eventually banning ICE cars is an essential public health measure.

Ya I'm visiting my mum in a rural area and I went for a jog today and I couldn't believe how bad the exhausts were that drove past me. I don't think they'd pass the emissions test in the city I'm from.
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