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Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

nytimes.com

391–400 of 632 posts

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#391
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning is not just formal education. Learning costs much less money today than it probably ever has. Practically everyone in the US has the access of all the world's collective information.

And all the free time in the world while working 3 jobs: https://youtu.be/wFNj5sireDo

OP originally said it was expensive. She did not argue that it was easy or the person had free time.

That's a cute clip, but if you look at statistics you'll see Americans with less than a high school degree work on average 7.8 hours a day, and only 30% work on weekends and holidays.

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.t04.htm

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#392

Both article and (so far) HN comments manage to avoid the phrase Protestant Work Ethic. The Protestant Work Ethic is a belief that work itself is inherently a good idea, usually because it is in some sense desirable by God, but this idea has outlasted mainstream confidence in the Protestant idea of a personal God. If you reject the PWE then very different possibilities emerge and in particular "full employment" stops…

If you ignore the religious association, how is this concept any different from the notion that society functions better when people are industrious and maximise their efforts to do things that are useful and valuable to others?

I hear the PWE invoked (usually with a sneer), and reflect that it seems to be referring to exactly how my parents have operated throughout their adult lives, and that if everyone behaved the way my parents have done (to the extent that they are capable, of course), society would function far more effectively and harmoniously.

And then I wonder what I'm missing.

My mother spent her career working in hospitals helping to rehabilitate seriously injured and ill people. In her non-work time she cared for her ageing parents until they passed away. Now she helps raise her grandkids.

My father helped design and build telecommunications networks then ran a company making electronic gadgets that helped school kids learn about science, and environmental researchers gather data.

Both of them have spent much of their non-work time volunteering in the community - at kindergarten, school, church, and more. And they have maintained a healthy social life and done plenty of travel.

They've always been busy, but never burnt out or exhausted. Always occupied and fulfilled, never resentful.

I don't see how any of their work or volunteering is surplus to society's requirements.

I do see that society would be better off if more people were doing the kind of work and volunteering that my parents have always done.

What am I missing here?

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#393
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you have to follow all these rules people make up.

I don't have to, but society at great can attempt to make me. There are many ways around this.

You kinda do, because that's what society is: rules made up to enable people to live together.

If you don't want to follow anyone's rules but your own, I recommend living completely on your own in the wilderness, off the grid and all that. Only then are you responsible only for yourself.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#394

It's not like meritocracy is completely unrelated to real life, it matters in a certain regime. However, if like Vanessa, you're born to lesser circumstances, you just cannot escape poverty by just working harder. Similarly, if you are born to very well off standards, even if you're a dope and spend money from Dad's inheritance on cocaine, sure, you won't be successful but you'll still have a net of some kind. You ca…

>you just cannot escape poverty by just working harder. This is a traditional, stereotypical belief that in order to escape poverty you have to work harder. This is old understanding of meritocracy and it's no longer valid. The new meritocracy is that you have to learn harder. And now, given all the learning resources available for free on the internet (which is also very accessible nowadays) it's probably the best t…

The capacity for self-education is not innate for most people. Developing this capacity requires dedication, the ability to delay gratification, significant emotional regulation, and most importantly it requires knowing how to learn. For optimal results, these skills must be fostered from an early age all the way through young adulthood. People who grew up with deprivation or abuse or neglect are unlikely to be good self-learners as adults.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#395
post #146
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wages, in real terms, have largely lost purchasing power to the point where it takes two incomes to have the same (or less) purchasing power than one income did prior to WWII. I don't think that is true. Even if you exclude management jobs, hourly wages have remained roughly steady in real terms since the 1960's: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-... There are also longitudinal effects at…

I had a quick cursory glance for useful contrasting data to show how while wages in real terms have stayed flat in the US, things like college tuition fees[1] and house prices[2] have not. Both of these things are pretty important - college education can be life altering in terms of career trajectory, and owning a house is an entry point into the wealth ladder and also simply an escape from rent. In real terms, the c…

Exactly... flat wage growth in real terms is useless if the rise in the price of the things you need/want outstrips your ability to buy it.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#396
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And all the free time in the world while working 3 jobs: https://youtu.be/wFNj5sireDo

OP originally said it was expensive. She did not argue that it was easy or the person had free time. That's a cute clip, but if you look at statistics you'll see Americans with less than a high school degree work on average 7.8 hours a day, and only 30% work on weekends and holidays. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.t04.htm

Statistics hide the raw numbers and emotional reality.

30% is how many people?

What’s their schedule look like if they have kids too?

That’s a cute trick, using cold hard facts to normalize away bullshit

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not the only reader. Most humans remember personal narratives far more efficiently than they parse data tables. Humans who don't operate like this are very much an exception. So this is a communication technique - part of rhetoric, in fact. And communicating with median readers is what journalists are paid to do.

I'm not arguing for removing all personal stories from journalistic articles. But if every single Article I read has a headline that I am interested in, but then asks me to read a long personal story before it will actually explain to me what the headline means, it will discourage me from reading articles. In fact, it already has. Journalist aren't just paid to communicate with median readers, but with all readers. I…

I feel like there’s some sort of connection here between how magazines are systematically and repeatedly not fulfilling your basic needs to absorb information by using a narrative and the articles description of how society is failing those in poverty with the narrative of “jobs==fixed poverty”.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry to hear about your parents. However I don't know what your point is. On one hand you say your hard work and focus on future got you out of poverty. Then you say your parents are an example of where hard work and grit are NOT all you need. Honestly it sounds like you were born with a certain amount of intelligence, got some money to go to college, and you made the most of it. But where would you be if you ha…

There's always oil rigging work, which can start at 80k and pretty quickly get into the six figures with no college education

I really don't think that oil rigging work will "always" be there. I imagine that unskilled work in the field would mostly disappear in the next few decades.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#399

If there are only 19 bones for every 20 dogs, then it doesn't matter how good a bone hunter they all are there will always be one dog disappointed and the other 19 will be grateful for the bone no matter how thin and weedy it is. Systemically the 'interest rate targeting' approach starts to tighten up policy when unemployment gets below 5% - which they consider 'full employment' even though 1 in 20 haven't got jobs.…

If the hungry dog is always the same, maybe the problem is not the missing bone.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean "removed"? Are you talking about this comment that was downvoted? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17966334

Wierdest thing, I cannot see it in thread, however it is under url you've provided.

Did you click on the "More" link at the bottom of the main comments page?
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