Live data from Hacker News

Bitcoin Gold Hit by Double Spend Attack, Exchanges Lose Millions

ccn.com

391–400 of 555 posts

Re: Bitcoin Gold Hit by Double Spend Attack, Exchanges Lose Millions

#391
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the bitcoin system, miners make literally billions of dollars a year protecting the network. Any successful attack on the bitcoin network is going to massively erode confidence, reduce the price, reduce the usage, and therefore reduce the value of all that single-purpose, bitcoin-only hardware. Large miners don't want to see Bitcoin get attacked because it destroys their income and de-values their incredibly expen…

Logical and sound arguments. However you underestimate human greed, human stupidity. Not everyone is operating on a Nash Equilibrium.

This will all be valid concerns the day we see a real 51% attack on real Bitcoin. So far Nash seems to be working.

Re: Bitcoin Gold Hit by Double Spend Attack, Exchanges Lose Millions

#392

When Bitcoin was running up to $20,000, I tried to analyze the system and come to a personal conclusion about its equilibrium value, because I didn't want to miss out if it really was the currency of the future. I ended up not investing, because of the possibility of a double-spend attack. I think that cryptocurrency enthusiasts are seriously underestimating the importance of double-spending attacks to the economics…

> If hash capacity were traded on a perfectly competitive market, then it would always make sense to rent 51% of the capacity at market rates, earn the transaction fees, and also perform a double-spending attack. There is no equilibrium point for transaction fees where this attack becomes uneconomical. The only defense is that the market for hash capacity is imperfect.

At this point in time the current hashrate of the bitcoin network is 32.500 PH/s, up from 5.000 PH/s a year ago and 1.400 PH/s two years ago. If you rent 51% of the network it's going to be rather obvious that something is happening, that will however not prevent an attack. Let us assume that you can rent capacity because the miners are greedy, what price would you have to pay? Let's assume that you can buy from miners that want to exit the mining business, so they do not care about deprecating the value of their hardware nor the bitcoin value itself.

So the assumptions are that 51% of the available capacity don't care if bitcoin tank and burn as long as they profit enough, and you're able to buy that. A 0.43% difficulty increase daily (average over last 2 years), bitcoin price of 7.600$, a 4MW powerdraw, and electricity prices of $0.08/KWh

Miners controlling 51% would profit north of $1.000.000.000 yearly, and if they just want to be compensated for that one year, you have to pay $1.000.000.000 to rent 51%. That is a lot of money, and at $20.000 high it would be tripple that value.

However, why would 51% of the capacity suddenly exit? Rather they want to be compensated for multiple years of profit, lets say 5 years and it's not unreasonable to expect bitcoin to reach $70.000 in that time. So we're looking at a $50.000.000.000 cost to coordinate the attack. That's expensive, and with that kind of money there are other ways to make them multiply. Who would pay that to ensure destruction of the thing we know as Bitcoin? After all, the success means it's likely that another *coin takes over, where you cannot 51% as easily.

Re: Bitcoin Gold Hit by Double Spend Attack, Exchanges Lose Millions

#393
post #216

Oddly enough, one of the selling points of Bitcoin Gold (a hard fork of Bitcoin) was its use of Equihash instead of SHA-256. The idea was that a memory-hard proof-of-work function would inoculate Bitcoin Gold from miner centralization. The problem with mining centralization is that sufficiently powerful miners can attack the network by rewriting blocks. This opens the door to double spending. This was exactly the att…

All those arguments do make sense, but only if the underlying cryptocurrency is actually big enough. That it has enough hashpower (in whatever algorithm) - to be secure. Bitcoin Gold simply was too small.

Re: Bitcoin Gold Hit by Double Spend Attack, Exchanges Lose Millions

#394
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you ask the same question if the world run 100% on renewables? If not, it seems that your argument should be "we should accelerate our transition to renewables" instead of "bitcoin spends too much power". Also they pay for all the energy they spend so what exactly is the problem? Do you see vegans complain for the resources spent to raise animals?

> Would you ask the same question if the world run 100% on renewables? Yes, because the resources (Material or labour) that went into building those renewable power plants could have gone into building something else that people want or need. Houses. Retaining walls. High-speed rail tracks. Electric cars. Bicycles. Video games. Rolls of sushi. I will keep asking that question until we are in a post-scarcity society.

So we all get to decide how all the resources are spent? I am concerned that the desire to deem certain energy spending as unethical can lead us down a creepy path of authoritarianism.

Re: Bitcoin Gold Hit by Double Spend Attack, Exchanges Lose Millions

#395
post #168

more details here: https://forum.bitcoingold.org/t/double-spend-attack-on-excha... Bitcoin gold was a fork to try and decentralize mining. It changed to a proof of work that is supposed to be ASIC resistant. It looks like the typical situation is mining by GPU for equihash (BTG PoW). BTG hashrate is at ~30MH/s at the moment, where Zcash's hashrate is at ~486MH/s. I don't have the numbers off hand, but it'd be interes…

You can rent hashing power on Nicehash, which currently has ~77MSol/s available for rent. I'm not 100% familiar with how the auction process works, but it looks like I could purchase 26MSol/s via a fixed contract for 1 hour for ~1BTC. Am I misunderstanding something here, or can I maintain a 51% attack right now for ~$8k an hour. This can't be right.

It is risky, but it is right, that's exactly why took a while to happen. A relatively small botnet can overtake many smaller coins in hash power in no time, that's the hypothesis where I'd put the money.

Re: Bitcoin Gold Hit by Double Spend Attack, Exchanges Lose Millions

#396
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top miners can short twice as many BTC futures to create one last profitable destruction.

If a large miner comes to you asks for a multi billion dollar short position, you should be suspicious.

That's when you just split your short through a few thousand shell accounts.

Re: Bitcoin Gold Hit by Double Spend Attack, Exchanges Lose Millions

#397
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

REG: Right. You're in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People's Front. P.F.J.: Yeah... JUDITH: Splitters. P.F.J.: Splitters... FRANCIS: And the Judean Popular People's Front. P.F.J.: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters... LORETTA: And the People's Front of Judea. P.F.J.: Yeah. Splitters. Splitters... REG: What? LORETTA: The People's Front of Judea. Splitters. REG: We're th…

Can you please post something relevant to the topic under discussion? There’s enough noise on this thread as it is.

You needed a throwaway account just to tell someone off?

Re: Bitcoin Gold Hit by Double Spend Attack, Exchanges Lose Millions

#398

When Bitcoin was running up to $20,000, I tried to analyze the system and come to a personal conclusion about its equilibrium value, because I didn't want to miss out if it really was the currency of the future. I ended up not investing, because of the possibility of a double-spend attack. I think that cryptocurrency enthusiasts are seriously underestimating the importance of double-spending attacks to the economics…

> If hash capacity were traded on a perfectly competitive market, then it would always make sense to rent 51% of the capacity at market rates, earn the transaction fees, and also perform a double-spending attack. There is no equilibrium point for transaction fees where this attack becomes uneconomical. The only defense is that the market for hash capacity is imperfect.

You're killing your goose with the golden eggs. That is, if a currencies remains in use.

Re: Bitcoin Gold Hit by Double Spend Attack, Exchanges Lose Millions

#399
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also they only need to hold 51% for as long as they can complete the double-spend attack.

The article says they reversed some transactions up to 22 blocks later, which is 220 minutes, or 3 hours 40 minutes. So they would only need 51% for that time, but they didn't just add 51% of hashing power or that would be noticeable on the charts. From the looks of it [0] the hashrate has been falling slowly since BTG was created, so the miner may have just become the one with 51% by virtue of keeping mining with th…

The hashrate doesn't measure orphaned blocks.

Re: Bitcoin Gold Hit by Double Spend Attack, Exchanges Lose Millions

#400

When Bitcoin was running up to $20,000, I tried to analyze the system and come to a personal conclusion about its equilibrium value, because I didn't want to miss out if it really was the currency of the future. I ended up not investing, because of the possibility of a double-spend attack. I think that cryptocurrency enthusiasts are seriously underestimating the importance of double-spending attacks to the economics…

Not all cryptocurrencies are secured by hashpower or "mining", have you considered those?

Examples like Delegated Proof-of-Stake or "eusocial oligarchy like consensus" systems like Byteball?

Post reply on HN