Live data from Hacker News

After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

nytimes.com

391–400 of 421 posts

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#391

Two words: German Romanticism. Although the article‘s premise seems reasonable (given the author‘s origin, the USA, being renown as prone to prescribe pain killers and psychotropics for the most menial things[1]) - a similar bias must be outlined when trying to understand the German perspective: That we are still romanticists. Many German doctors will send you off with „some rest“ and „tea“. Some will prescribe homeo…

This is not true. Doctors do not and must not prescribe Homeopathic stuff in Germany. If it is payed for by the government/healthcare, it has to be proven effective.

As an example, here is what the Technikerkrankenkasse says about it (german)[0]

And an overview by Focus (german)[1]

[0] https://www.tk.de/techniker/service/leistungen-und-mitglieds...

[1] https://www.focus.de/finanzen/versicherungen/krankenversiche...

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#392
post #8

I always get in a arguments with my EU acquaintances over pain management topics. The idea that is a "good" to suffer with pain instead of taking pain killers is abhorrent to me.

You've clearly misunderstood what's happening with pain management in Europe.

Firstly, it has nothing to do with cost. European pain management is expensive but available.

1) If you are in short term pain you will get pain relief. A wide range of options wil be available, from non-pharmacological options at one end (easing fear, for example) through non-opioids (paracetamol, ibuprofen, entonox) but using opioids when needed. Here's a guide form one of the English NHS Ambo trusts: https://www.swast.nhs.uk/Downloads/Clinical%20Guidelines%20S... You should be reassured that the entire document talks about properly treating pain, and reducing the pain the patient is in. There is no mention of cost in that document.

2) The reason they don't just go direct to opioids is because opioids have side effects. They have more side effects than other pain control meds. This causes harm to the patient.

3) If you are in long term pain things are more complex. People in long term pain fall into different groups. Some of them will be cured from their long term pain with lifestyle modification. Most, but not all, people with lower back pain will be cured if they lose weight and get exercise. It would be cheaper to give them opioids, but because diet and exercise are more effective and safer they get a package of care that includes access to a gym and physiotherapist, access to weight loss clubs, access to dieticians. Some people with long term pain will never be cured, but will be able to manage with access to a pain clinic. But some people with long term pain will always have that pain. There is no cure for it. We can't just give these people all the opioids they want because they develop a tolerance, and need an increased dose. At some point you have people taking very high -dangerous- levels of opioids but still not getting pain relief. These people need a package of bio-psycho-social care that includes access to specialist pain management clinics. Again, this is more expensive than just giving people opioids.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of them (Acetaminophen is the US name for Paracetamol) are highly dangerous, even in small dosages. Paracetamol poisoning can kill within a day, and the lethal dosage is equivalent to about 20 pills. Ibuprofen is proven to cause heart attacks & stroke. Your suggestion is the perfect example of why over the counter drugs as so dangerous: a Dr or a pharmacist is aware of the dangers, that we (being the public) may…

I am a practicing doctor and I don't know where this is coming from. Paracetamol and Ibuprofen while they have potentially lethal side effects are incredibly safe and effective in daily practice and consequently are very widely used. Every known drug has side effects and if you ever read a drug insert you would never pop a pill again. In the case of ibuprofen/paracetamol we are careful to avoid use in patients with u…

> I am a practicing doctor and I don't know where this is coming from.

Well, on the front page at the moment is this: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology including testosterone production https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16254760

And this has been doing the rounds as well: Acetaminophen reduces empathy for pain https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14683173

I'm fortunate enough to never had need to take either, except after having my wisdom teeth out I took a few paracetamol with hydrocodone tablets.

I'm not suggesting that taking a few doses here and there is anything to be concerned about.

What worries me is that some people are consuming probably too much over probably too long and having subclinical negative health outcomes as a result.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#394
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recommended dosage, which most people take more of – take two every couple of hours, and you're going to need a new liver. And when you're in pain, it's easy to loose count. Which is why in some countries, the maximum amount allowed over the counter is 16ct or so (sometimes a bit more when bought from a pharmacist who can make sure the buyer is aware of the dangers). It is irresponsible to sell a 1,000 ct bottle of p…

I just looked at my ibuprofen bottle and it says to take one 200mg tablet every 4-6 hours. That's 800-1200mg per day, which is not something to worry about. Certainly if you ignore that and take a higher dose or take it more frequently you can have problems, but assuming you don't have existing liver issues and aren't drunk all the time, you need to take like 5x (or more) the recommended dose to run into any trouble.…

What I'm getting at is: what happens if you take 800-1200mg per day for, say, ten of days at a time, or even hundreds of days.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#395
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's simply not the case. It is exactly for an US audience important, because the German system is vastly different: universal health care, regulated by the government, 99.9% coverage, run by a system of 100+ insurers and various health care providers. > Social insurance contributions are mandatory Mandatory is to be insured. > based on income in a range, or if one is privately insured one pays based on risk/age Fa…

> Krankenkassen and Krankenversicherungen are not generally state entities They are state entities established by law ( Körperschaften öffentlichen Rechts mit Selbstverwaltung ) and have to follow the strict regulations of the public sector. They regularly issue Verwaltungsakte . > Would you call something like the Audi BKK a state entity? Yes, absolutely. It's a state entity that provides care for Audi employees, si…

I would not generally call a 'Körperschaften öffentlichen Rechts mit Selbstverwaltung' a clear state entity.

They are not owned by the state, they are independently run (by their members), they are independently funded (by their members), ...

Though they are heavily regulated, they have certain government mandated tasks and not typical companies.

'Private Krankenversicherungen' are not 'Körperschaften öffentlichen Rechts mit Selbstverwaltung', they are private companies.

> A private entity does not have these options and would need to go through general courts.

Like 'Private Krankenversicherungen' - they go through a court.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#396
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if that doctor has ever had major surgery himself and been told not to use painkillers? Even if that is the case, pain seems to vary greatly in how it affects people. I would be very hesitant to tell someone that they should just let the pain "guide" them, because I have no idea what it is like for them.

> I wonder if that doctor has ever had major surgery himself and been told not to use painkillers? Since when is that a requirement for knowing what is best for your patients? The doctor is basing their judgement on current consensus within their field, which hopefully involves careful studies.

> The doctor is basing their judgement on current consensus within their field, which hopefully involves careful studies.

Medicine is unfortunately not nearly as scientific as you might wish - I worked for the British Medical Journal a while back and they are all about evidence-based medicine... unfortunately, there is still a lot of medicine that's based off of received knowledge or observational evidence, which may or may not be accurate. The situation is changing though as things get proper studies done, but it's not always easy to get decent results and so current consensus can and does change over time as research gets done.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#397

Would you rather live in a country where medication is freely available over the counter, or one in which you need a prescription for everything? Having lived in both, I'd choose the former. What is a problem in the latter is trivial in the former. Does requiring medical intervention lessen drug abuse? Not entirely. But the vast majority of medications purchased are not drugs of abuse. When was the last time you hear…

Prescriptions for everything work better. People end up trivializing medicaments when they are freely available. Talking to a doctor helps control certain conditions that are easily masked with self-medication.

Of course, it's hard to do this without having universal healthcare.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#398
post #67

This passage feels like it is premise of the article; the author eventually comes to terms with her tea-sipping and resting as recovery, and this doctor explains the reasoning behind the medical decision-making which is very clear (and mindful/thoughtful) I think. “To paraphrase him [German anesthesiologist], he said: ‘Pain is a part of life. We cannot eliminate it nor do we want to. The pain will guide you. You will…

Yet moderate Ibuprofen use is harmless to the liver - so much for German rationality: https://livertox.nlm.nih.gov/Ibuprofen.htm, that said you could look at a ~20% reduction of Serum testosterone over time http://www.pnas.org/content/115/4/E715

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#399
post #67

This passage feels like it is premise of the article; the author eventually comes to terms with her tea-sipping and resting as recovery, and this doctor explains the reasoning behind the medical decision-making which is very clear (and mindful/thoughtful) I think. “To paraphrase him [German anesthesiologist], he said: ‘Pain is a part of life. We cannot eliminate it nor do we want to. The pain will guide you. You will…

Reminds me of the commercials here. Back killing you while lifting pianos all day? Knees aching from gardening at age 80? Pop a pill and ignore the signals that you're damaging your body!

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#400
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opioids for wisdom teeth removal is insane to me (and 100% of the medical doctors that I know, and it's a lot of them). This is utterly disfunctional.

In fairness my wisdom teeth removal wasn’t exactly textbook. I had to go to an oral surgeon and he had to dig into the lower jawbone to remove one of them, breaking it into pieces to get it off the nerve. I had a lot of damage to the gums and quite a few bone fragments migrated out over the next few weeks. I was however even offered opioids for a root canal once (different dentist). I didn’t fill that prescription.

Having had a bunch of dental work done, sometimes it's not unreasonable - I had my wisdom teeth out and was given hydrocodone for afterward, but I was fortunate and didn't have any pain warranting it after.

Being given opiates for a root canal seems insane, though - if you have crippling pain _after_ a root canal, I think that means the dentist did something horribly wrong.

Post reply on HN