How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking” • Hacker News Board

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#391

Post by sagarm » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 2:31 AM UTC

Nition wrote: post #320

contingencies wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter point. Late 30s here, family, no car, no license. I use cabs all the time, it's great. I have a fine social life and can drink safely. I can rent houses and move about for work, then change countries without offloading assets at fire-sale prices. I choose not to live in an unpleasant climate, so snow is a non-issue for me. Have you considered the option that maybe you just don't get it? Cars are responsible f…

> noise, visual and air pollution, danger, How is calling a taxi every time you need a car any better than using a car you own in these areas? I do agree that the need for parking spaces is improved.

Reduced need to dedicate public space to storing private vehicles, a more efficient fleet (since they're incentivizes to optimize for cost/mi), no time spent looking or paying for parking, no need to maintain or fuel a vehicle, reduced risk of impaired driving, more experienced/capable drivers, freedom to switch between transit modes (cycle/walk somewhere but call a car to get back due to time of day/weather), often cheaper than owning a vehicle after considering all costs (depreciation, maintenance, insurance).

Outside a sufficiently dense city the pros might not outweigh the cons, but if walking/cycling/transit can cover most of your travel you probably don't need a car for the other half. I only have one for leaving the the city.

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#392

Post by bound008 » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 2:32 AM UTC

This was covered in a very entertaining show called Adam Ruins Everything. Each episode has footnotes for the sources:

http://www.trutv.com/shows/adam-ruins-everything/blog/adams-...

Interestingly enough, their source was an article from Vox from 2007: https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2934608/N...

EDIT: the article references the original author's work and the book (also cited as a source by the show) http://www.amazon.com/Fighting-Traffic-American-Inside-Techn...

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#393

Post by phil21 » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 2:33 AM UTC

jdhopeunique wrote: post #46

mlinksva wrote: post #27

Now is an opportunity, perhaps first in ~100 years, perhaps last, to recover the streets for unaugmented humans: slow down cars in urban areas, increase qualifications for humans to drive, eventually ban human drivers entirely, leaving only automated vehicles with enough sensors and going slowly enough to reduce auto-related deaths for pedestrians and passengers alike to zero.

If automated vehicles become popular, I predict new crimes will be added in addition to jaywalking. Cyclists may be restricted and anything else that confuses AI drivers. If certain intersections or sections of road consistently confuse AI drivers, automakers will lobby for ways to change these roadways. I suspect calls for AI regulation by people like Elon Musk are really attempts at regulatory capture to make autom…

Yup. The first thing I think about wrt to driverless cars being adopted en-masse is how trivially easy it would be to DDoS them.

Literally just stand in front of them and there will be nothing they can do. Once people get used to zero social repercussions (driverless cars will be empty probably 50% of the time en-route to pick someone up or go park themselves by my estimation) I imagine you will see things like certain folks simply crossing streets blindly comfortable in the fact that the cars will stop for them regardless of right of way.

Many will disagree that this will happen, but I think many underestimate the antisocialness of folks when there are no consequences.

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#394

Post by scythe » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 2:37 AM UTC

contingencies wrote: post #316

Noos wrote: post #305

Can HN please stop it with this "not owning a car is virtuous" shtick? I went most of my younger life not having a car, only learning to drive at age 28. I lived in a new england suburb close enough to go to my work and shopping services at a ten minute walk at the time, and it still was horrid. People here don't get how limited your life is without a car. You are limited to a ten-fifteen mile radius for everything,…

Counter point. Late 30s here, family, no car, no license. I use cabs all the time, it's great. I have a fine social life and can drink safely. I can rent houses and move about for work, then change countries without offloading assets at fire-sale prices. I choose not to live in an unpleasant climate, so snow is a non-issue for me. Have you considered the option that maybe you just don't get it? Cars are responsible f…

>Counter point. Late 30s here, family, no car, no license. I use cabs all the time, it's great. I have a fine social life and can drink safely. I can rent houses and move about for work, then change countries without offloading assets at fire-sale prices. I choose not to live in an unpleasant climate, so snow is a non-issue for me. Have you considered the option that maybe you just don't get it?

There's nothing to "get". His experiences are his experiences. I've also tried the living-without-a-car thing, and in both Atlanta and the Bay Area, it's about as fun as... I don't know, walking on hot coals or something. The fact that you feel otherwise (while living on a salary that allows you to talk about "offloading assets") doesn't invalidate his actual life.

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#395

Post by phil21 » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 2:40 AM UTC

mieseratte wrote: post #203

geofft wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the same United States where just about everyone already carries a tracking device by choice, where lots of people have installed 24/7 network-connected microphones in their homes, and where everyone believes you need ID to fly. This is the same United States where a common political argument is that of course ID should be required to vote because ID is required for everything else, and citizens should just c…

I'm going to assume this is a good-faith argument and not a "bury them in BS" reply: > This is the same United States where just about everyone already carries a tracking device by choice. Sure, that's a very reasonable counter-point, however not everyone does. > where lots of people have installed 24/7 network-connected microphones in their homes Plenty of folks find asking a wiretap for pancake recipes fine, and th…

I'm curious if you were around and leading a normal adult life before 9/11?

I think you'll find "land of the free, home of the brave" is more or less a cheap slogan once the chips are down and people are afraid.

Exceedingly few people in the US actually care about individual freedom or privacy. 9/11 drove that point severely home to me - those born in the 90's and later will never know the America I once knew, and I'm sure those born before Pearl Harbor and the like would say similar.

The erosion of personal freedom and the expectation of privacy just in my lifetime has been absolutely astounding. Watching basically everyone trade their freedom for temporary security.

Hyperbolic? A bit. But I think if you spend some moments of reflection you'll realize almost none of your fellow citizens actually care. They will play lip service at best until an event happens that scares them, and at that point you're the crazy privacy freak with obviously something to hide.

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#396

Post by throwaway30yo » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 3:12 AM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #231

jdhopeunique wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In bad neighborhoods, the carjackers(might not want a autonomous car though) or robbers might just roll a beach ball into the street to stop the car or maybe just a cheap open umbrella. I can imagine those people who practice "rolling coal" doing the same thing to rich autonomous car riders or just throwing a beach ball out the window on an interstate. Lots of possibilities that security researchers will need to cons…

Autonomous cars have a lot of data gathering sensors - even if the car doesn't know something is going on, logs of what happened will greatly aid the police in their efforts to track down the criminal. If carjacking becomes a problem the cars will figure it out and start locking all the doors. Or if the car is unoccupied, let the carjaker in, then notify the nearest police station it is coming in with a criminal.

You think an unoccupied car should have the ability to lock people in and take them to the police station?

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#397

Post by maccard » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 3:24 AM UTC

Noos wrote: post #305

Can HN please stop it with this "not owning a car is virtuous" shtick? I went most of my younger life not having a car, only learning to drive at age 28. I lived in a new england suburb close enough to go to my work and shopping services at a ten minute walk at the time, and it still was horrid. People here don't get how limited your life is without a car. You are limited to a ten-fifteen mile radius for everything,…

All of your complaints are US centric. I'm visiting the US right now for the first time, and it's incredible how reliant on cars you are. We had to drive for dinner tonight, and we did not see _one_ pedestrian.

In the UK, a 10 mile radius will probably encompass 4 or 5 different towns, each of which will have their own centre, and will provide _most_ of what you require, and public transport is sufficient for most people (there will always be exceptions).

> A life without personal cars would be a rather limited and even serfish one.

I invite you to come and live in the UK. Many of the cities, and even towns, are perfectly liveable in without personal cars. Yes there are things you can do with a personal car that you can't do without one, but that applies to most products in our lives.

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#398

Post by sethammons » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 3:29 AM UTC

emj wrote: post #367

Noos wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have walked in that temperature. Its only something the young and very healthy can do, and the wind cuts like a knife. I wouldn't bike in that weather due to wind chill and the slushy nature of most roads, as well as the fact its very hilly where I live. I cannot see an entire society doing this, in areas that range from small towns to medium sized cities.

You just need some extra clothes to handle -18°C no problem at all IMHO, and as long as the temprature is below freezing you will have no problem with shitty roads. I would say the winter is the best season to bicycle, you can go everywhere.

I'm going to assume you're unfamiliar with being poor. I recall my shoe's sole could flap open and let in snow and the only clothes I had were the pair of jeans that I had on (that were wet from snowmelt) and a crappy jacket. Just getting some extra clothes was not as easy as going down to REI. And if the weather fluctuates from below freezing to above, you have unforgiving ice that cannot be cycled upon. Sorry for an off topic rant. Being poor and cold and cycling struck a cord from my youth.

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#399

Post by intended » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 3:42 AM UTC

adjkant wrote: post #384

kazinator wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A human driver has a good chance to recognize the situation for what it is and just hit the beachball. (Or heck, the hoodlum himself.)

Um where do you think this is happening exactly that people know that beachball = carjacking? Based on the language used, I suspect you aren't in such an area and are coming up with an unrealistic scenario here.

anywhere.

i always bring up the examples of thak thak gangs in delhi to show actual threats which become worse with autonomous cars.

i suspect people in the first world who believe in autonomous cars are exposed to a very limited set of uses for roads and cars.

India is the place where the autonomous car dream goes to die.

after that every downgrades the idea to lower than level 5 driving.

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#400

Post by fyfy18 » Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 3:51 AM UTC

clairity wrote: post #257

CaptainZapp wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That probably won't endear me to the general commentariat, but... Slower roads (max 20MPH/30KMPH) should be bicycle and pedestrian-first. Spot on! 100 points!

i think that would be ok too, but the solution i prefer is to narrow residential street lanes (and on other urban streets as well). all roads, but even residential streets, in car-centric cities like LA seem to be built wide enough to accommodate 747's with ease. my proposal: rather than 12-15 foot widths, make urban residential street lanes 9 feet wide (cars are typically 6-7 feet wide, delivery trucks, 8 feet wide)…

Grade separation would work in warm climates, but anywhere it may snow it is somewhat dangerous as hitting the hidden curb could send you out of control.

In one street of my city the parking was replaced with two way bicycle lanes, and there are plastic bollards to separate it from the road (which is probably around 9 feet now as you suggest). Compared to a grade separation that isn’t going to do much if you go over it, if you hit a bollard it’s going to leave a nice permanent mark on your car, so you are going to drive more carefully.

The only issue I’ve seen with this is if vehicles need to deliver to the shops and bars on this street, they have to park in the cycle lane (there is no rear access or parking).