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No tipping means better business

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Re: No tipping means better business

#391

Post by demosito666 »

oddlyaromatic wrote: post #238

Here's a pickle: I agree with the direction of this article, but I don't agree with most of the individual points and statements. I think the expectation of tipping in the US is in general a bad thing, but has enough upsides for business owners and some higher-earning servers (and even some customers) that it will be hard to dislodge. I also think the incentive for any business to change is probably not as high as th…

Is tipping somewhat mandatory in the US? Everywhere I've been it's up to the customer to decide if he wants to leave the tip. What if I won't leave tips?

Re: No tipping means better business

#392

Post by Anasufovic »

jackptfh wrote: post #373
throwaway2016a wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One is the idea of a percentage I've always found this odd too. Say for a special occasion I decide to go to a high end steakhouse... mid-range bottle of wine, two nice steaks, a'la cart sides, appetizer, and desert we're at $500. That's $100 at 20%. Did that person really do more work than the person I tipped $10 at Chili's (an american casual family restaurant)? > Another inconsistency is where to tip I usually e…

Yes, on average the server at the high end restaurant did substantially more work, and they performed it more expertly. they were better able to answer questions and offer suggestions (including off-menu changes that might help you). They timed your meal for your enjoyment rather than for turnover. They made sure you had fresh silverware, a clean table, and a full glass. They coordinated your bar, wine, and food orde…

While I'm not disagreeing that a server at a high end restaurant has substantially more work to do. I'd argue that simply the lower volume of orders and higher level planning by the restaurant managers is a more critical piece here. It's like running on a bespoke finely tuned server versus just trying to use auto scaling cloud services and crossing your fingers.

Re: No tipping means better business

#393

Post by coredog64 »

nommm-nommm wrote: post #298
maccard wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Terrible waiter? Subtract $2 or $3. Really? Surely if they're a terrible waiter/terrible service, you shouldn't leave any tip.

In most cases the service you get is merely a function of how well managed the place is that's it. I believe that it's somewhat unfair to withhold an employee's salary because their management is dysfunctional. Even if they were downright lazy they still work somewhere where they are allowed to be downright lazy. I say this as someone who has worked for both very dysfunctional management as well as very functional, p…

My brother-in-law is a waiter and his work complaints echoed this. At his current employer they pool tips, but mgmt has overstaffed for nights that are traditionally slow. That means easier work, but also less money.

In places where they don't pool the direct wait staff might still need to give a cut to others. It was explained to me that the busboys will sandbag you if they feel cheated, and then good luck turning over tables in your section when they haven't been cleared.

Re: No tipping means better business

#394

Post by wccrawford »

coldtea wrote: post #37

> Now what if we were to magically make tipping disappear? Think about the diner for a second. What if, by removing tips from your restaurant, you’ll actually end up delighting more guests, improving your food, and retaining employees? Well, I've dined all over the world (not an American btw), and the US had the most friendly and alert waiting stuff, which I guess it's at least party because of the tipping. Sure, in…

My experience is a little less worldly. I live in the US, and I've visited Canada, Japan, and touristy parts of Mexico and the Carribean.

My experience is that the US, in general, came in last or tied with Mexico and the Carribean. I'm not talking bad service, just not as nice as Canada (second place) or Japan (first place).

Canadians tend to just be nice people (I've got relatives there, so I'm probably biased) and I think that's why it's got good service.

Japan has a culture of customer service that leads it to be the best, IMO. Anyone who has learned some Japanese and then visited Japan will have stories to tell you of how amazingly nice the clerks are and some of the odd situations you can get in because you don't know the culture. For instance: You aren't supposed to ask, "Do you have any (X)?" This is because they can't tell a customer "no". If you do this, they'll take you to the part of the store that would have the product, and then say something like, "It would be here if we had it."

Instead, you're supposed to say, "Do you not have (X)?" and then they can answer "Yes, we have none."

That isn't to say that people don't have bad experiences there. A co-worker of mine said she had a bad experience and found that clerks were rude to her. (She's very nice, so it wasn't her attitude or anything.) But in general, the stories I hear are of amazing levels of service.

Re: No tipping means better business

#395

Post by joshontheweb »

csydas wrote: post #81
joshontheweb wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Tipping culture gives more power to the customer and results in better service in my experience. Every time I come back to the US I experience a noticeable increase in attention and service. Also, when abroad, if they find out you are from the US many servers will put in extra work as they know there is a decent chance you will tip based on your home culture. I always tip even in countries where it isn't expe…

I disagree. I'm an expatriated US citizen, and I find the restaurant service abroad on par with US restaurants, with the only difference being how much lip service is given by the servers. To explain it simply, in US restaurants, I feel like someone is trying to brown-nose the entire time. It's not value that I seek, it's someone doing something and trying to place value on it. The servers are mostly pleasant, and at…

What upsets me is when I have to wait too long for refills on drinks and if I'm not checked back on to see if anything else is needed shortly after the food is served. I've had many experience in non-tipping countries where you may never see your waiter again after the meal is served. Of course, thats just my experience but it seems fairly consistent. I never have that problem in the US and if I do, I certainly don't tip.

Re: No tipping means better business

#396

Post by Cerium »

branchless wrote: post #310
grecy wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse still, tipping is merely a way of keeping class hierarchies, and it's disgusting. When a person walks into a restaurant in the USA they can waive a $20 bill at a waitperson and say if you do what I want, and if I like you, and if I'm feeling generous, I might give you some of this. Of course, they might not too. Labor laws, minimum wage, etc are all there to make this illegal in a work contract, and it should b…

I've not read this second one yet but the first was very good: http://prole.info/ Abolish restaurants. Might be interesting to you to give it a chance. I was thinking the other day that the 1800 world of servants living upstairs/downstairs has been replaced by privatised slaves who have no job security, no guarantee of lodging and nothing other than temporary masters. The situation we have right now is demeaning, the…

Thanks for the read!

Re: No tipping means better business

#397

Post by dragonwriter »

hsitz wrote: post #361
makecheck wrote: post #342

Tipping is also extremely inconsistent in at least three ways. One is the idea of a percentage: how does that make any sense? When I go out for a rare nice dinner and the tip alone ends up being $20 or so, I ask myself: did this person/restaurant really do any more than the server of the last entire meal that cost $20? Of course not, and yet somehow it would look weird to pay $40 for a $20 meal with tip, for the same…

Yes. Another inconsistency involves the point in time at which a tip is expected. Historically tips came after the meal (or other service), and in theory you would tip well if you were happy with service, and badly or not at all if you were unhappy. In itself that made a little bit of sense (w/o considering the contradictions you mentioned). But nowadays you're often expected to tip at beginning of meal (i.e., when y…

I think that it's a mistake to think that because all POS systems used at restaurants support tips and you interact with that system up front at fast casual restaurants, therefore a tip is expected up front at those restaurants; it's generally not (and I've even seen some such places that use touchpad rather than write-on-reciept entry for tips pre-select "no tip"); virtually every source I've seen recommends that, if you tip at all at such places, you carry cash and tipping after service at such places [0]. And tipping at fast casual restaurants is far from a universal norm in the US. [1]

[0] e.g., http://vegasseven.com/2016/03/16/really-need-leave-tip-fast-...

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/322702/consumer-tipping-...

Re: No tipping means better business

#398

Post by nommm-nommm »

coredog64 wrote: post #393
nommm-nommm wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most cases the service you get is merely a function of how well managed the place is that's it. I believe that it's somewhat unfair to withhold an employee's salary because their management is dysfunctional. Even if they were downright lazy they still work somewhere where they are allowed to be downright lazy. I say this as someone who has worked for both very dysfunctional management as well as very functional, p…

My brother-in-law is a waiter and his work complaints echoed this. At his current employer they pool tips, but mgmt has overstaffed for nights that are traditionally slow. That means easier work, but also less money. In places where they don't pool the direct wait staff might still need to give a cut to others. It was explained to me that the busboys will sandbag you if they feel cheated, and then good luck turning o…

>mgmt has overstaffed for nights that are traditionally slow

Of course management doesn't have an incentive not to over staff because they aren't paying the employees hardly anything anyways. Add that with employees bribing^H^H^H^H^H^H^Htipping other employees and, wow, what a dysfunctional system.

I'd imagine bartenders would pretty much always be required to pool tips with each other since whenever there's more than one working they always work in a team.

Re: No tipping means better business

#399

Post by Jemmeh »

branchless wrote: post #358
Jemmeh wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly not trying to be rude, but is this satire? The job is demeaning because it's made to be so. Cooking in and of itself isn't demeaning. I love to bake. I don't love to bake and be treated like crap and get paid like crap and have no financial security.

I too love to cook. For myself in my time. I keep the surplus value I create and enjoy it. In the past when working in a cafe I've not enjoyed being ordered about by people who know I cannot afford to answer back.

Okay, thanks I wasn't sure if it was satire, because some people say an extreme thing to make a point.

Well a lot of that comes from tipping culture and low pay. Like you need to lick my shoe in order to get your $3 tip. It's a power dynamic-- you're reliant on their money, so you're lower than them. And society looks down on restaurant workers in general as lazy people. People's views on restaurant workers needs to change.

I've waitressed before too. I knew people who liked their job most of the time, you get to be around people, you get the satisfaction of someone enjoying a good meal you've made and being happy about it. Some people prefer physical work. I don't think the job itself "has" to be eradicated. But of course no one likes the people treat you like crap or the awful pay.

Re: No tipping means better business

#400

Post by tnecniv »

hsitz wrote: post #361
makecheck wrote: post #342

Tipping is also extremely inconsistent in at least three ways. One is the idea of a percentage: how does that make any sense? When I go out for a rare nice dinner and the tip alone ends up being $20 or so, I ask myself: did this person/restaurant really do any more than the server of the last entire meal that cost $20? Of course not, and yet somehow it would look weird to pay $40 for a $20 meal with tip, for the same…

Yes. Another inconsistency involves the point in time at which a tip is expected. Historically tips came after the meal (or other service), and in theory you would tip well if you were happy with service, and badly or not at all if you were unhappy. In itself that made a little bit of sense (w/o considering the contradictions you mentioned). But nowadays you're often expected to tip at beginning of meal (i.e., when y…

> But nowadays you're often expected to tip at beginning of meal (i.e., when you order and pay at register)

I've never seen this, other than at places where I'm not being waited on. At these, I don't tip unless I am particularly satisfied by the place.

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