Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#391

Post by gajjanag » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 1:59 PM UTC

obj-g wrote: post #305

I just really don't understand the whole self-driving car craze. What is so attractive about it? Why do people want it so badly? Personally, I like driving, rarely even use cruise control. I would never fully trust these auto-pilots. Ever. So what's the point? If I can't crawl into the backseat and take a nap and wake up at my destination, then what's the use?

I agree with these sentiments, but for slightly different reasons.

One of the main selling points is that commuters can save time (the focus on self driving cars, not trucks/rail). However, long commutes are mostly a constraint imposed by suburban sprawl and associated planning failures. The same applies to automated delivery mechanisms from shops, again of limited use in sufficiently dense communities. In such a scenario, this feels a lot like optimizing 1% of execution time in a program.

For large scale transport of goods or people, the same situation applies for the economics - the labor of the driver should be a small fraction of the operating costs. There could be some safety benefits, but this remains uncertain. I found https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-05-28/cars-will... quite interesting in this respect.

Seeing what happened with the invention of the automobile, I won't be surprised if self driving cars become the norm somehow. In the most extreme case there might be an outright ban on non autonomous cars at some point in the future. This is something I certainly don't look forward to.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#392

Post by gkya » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 1:59 PM UTC

Draiken wrote: post #326

gkya wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Tell me what's the difference between using a beta system and not caring (leaving hands off the wheel, etc) and drunk driving?" The latter is a clearly defined criminal offence whereas the former is currently unclear. While the driver is certainly liable for reckless driving, that the marketing seems to have suggested that the feature is usable, is a fact.

And does that remove the driver's responsibility?

No, certainly. The responsibility is shared, Tesla liable for a sub par product (that is autopilot, not the whole car) abd driver for what boils down to reckless driving. Though I want to note that I'm not familiar with the US legislation on traffic.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#393

Post by andrewclunn » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 2:00 PM UTC

What the hell is there to hit in Montana?

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#394

Post by taf2 » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 2:01 PM UTC

SamBam wrote: post #359

taf2 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its a bit harder than a double tap... You press and hold. Count to three. Now wait for the car to start blinking and make a shifting noise. Press either the front of the key or back of the key to move forward. Definitely not easy to engage so I can understand tesla view on this one... I do this every morning/night to pull my car out of the tiny garage since I can't get my door open inside the garage

Wait, did you build your garage for the car? What were you doing before self-parking cars?

We used to park in the driveway - I have to park inside now to reach the power plug - but I see three benefits

1 my car is nice and clean most of the time now

2 no more gas station dirty hands on the gas pump, I'm OCD umk

3 I get to watch my car pull out of the garage every morning in amazement :)

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#395

Post by cmurf » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 2:02 PM UTC

qaq wrote: post #356

Animats wrote: post #109

With three accidents on "autopilot" in a short period, the defects in Tesla's design are becoming clear. 1. Tesla's "hands on wheel" enforcement is much weaker than their competitors. BMW, Volvo, and Mercedes have similar systems, but after a few seconds of hands-off-wheel, the vehicle will start to slow. Tesla allows minutes of hands-off time; one customer reports driving 50 miles without touching the wheel. Tesla i…

This would be very reasonable if the feature was not experimental. You specifically turn on experimental feature and then purposefully ignore instructions on using that experimental feature. This is obviously manufacturer's fault.

Yes. It is completely predictable some percentage of people ignore instructions of when production quality features. That's why the fail safe comes first, even in an experimental feature. If you can't provide fail safe, it's not ready for prime time, including testing by the public.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#396

Post by gkya » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 2:02 PM UTC

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #347

Draiken wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And does that remove the driver's responsibility?

Does it remove Tesla's responsibility? You're literally now comparing Autopilot to criminal offenses and asking if it should be allowed, seems like you're suggesting Autopilot should be illegal. Sure, drivers suck, this is a known bug in humans. I'd like to see Autopilot changed to counteract the human limitation rather than acting like humans should be perfect for a system to work. This is how you get into bad UI de…

What's criminal is abuse of autopilot, not itself. Just like with alcohol, drink whatever you like, just don't get behind the wheel.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#397

Post by ethbro » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 2:03 PM UTC

wiz21c wrote: post #284

studentrob wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't envy his position, or any other CEO or leader of a large group. It's a huge responsibility. You can face jail time for not sharing information. Usually only the most egregious violators see a cell, but it's still a scary prospect if you somehow got caught up in some other executive's scheme. At the end of the day, the CEO signs everything. Edit: I see the downvote. Am I wrong? Is being a CEO all rainbows and…

the guy comes forward and says "I'm going to make an autopilot for the masses". He/We know it's tough to do. The guy release its autopilot. It's not quite ready for prime time. Double problem : the guy goes into a tough business alone, the guy makes stuff that's not 100% ready. I like it when people try to do hard stuff, that's fine and maybe heroic. But they have to be prepared : if testing the whole thing must take…

> if testing the whole thing must take 10 years to be safe and a gazillion dollars, then so be it. If it's too much to shoulder, then they should not enter the business

That sounds like a succinct explanation for why we've been stuck in LEO since December 19, 1972.

We've got 7 billion+ humans on the surface of our planet. We lose about 1.8/s to various tragedies.

Most of which are of less import than helping automate something that's responsible for around 32,000 deaths in the US every year. Move fast, break people for a just cause, escape risk-averse sociotechnological local minima, and build a future where fewer people die.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#398

Post by tnorthcutt » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 2:05 PM UTC

SamBam wrote: post #359

taf2 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its a bit harder than a double tap... You press and hold. Count to three. Now wait for the car to start blinking and make a shifting noise. Press either the front of the key or back of the key to move forward. Definitely not easy to engage so I can understand tesla view on this one... I do this every morning/night to pull my car out of the tiny garage since I can't get my door open inside the garage

Wait, did you build your garage for the car? What were you doing before self-parking cars?

Not all cars are the same size.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#399

Post by nix0n » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 2:06 PM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #263

Scarblac wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like it's some predicament he's in by some accident that wasn't his fault.

As outsiders, we can only know what the company, regulatory agencies, and reporters tell us.

> we can only know what the company ... [tells] us.

Tesla tells us "it's the driver's fault that he died while using our Autopilot".

Either Musk approved this message, or he didn't bother to read it before it went out, and didn't bother to apologize afterwards.

I think we can draw some conclusions from that.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#400

Post by cptskippy » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 2:10 PM UTC

SamBam wrote: post #359

taf2 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its a bit harder than a double tap... You press and hold. Count to three. Now wait for the car to start blinking and make a shifting noise. Press either the front of the key or back of the key to move forward. Definitely not easy to engage so I can understand tesla view on this one... I do this every morning/night to pull my car out of the tiny garage since I can't get my door open inside the garage

Wait, did you build your garage for the car? What were you doing before self-parking cars?

I'm not sure why it is, but a lot of 100 year old houses have garages that are just big enough to fit a car in and not be able to open the doors. Car dimensions really haven't grown all that much, the Ford model T was 66 inches wide and most modern sedans are ~70-75 inches.

Maybe they were never intended for cars?

Maybe it was a cost savings thing? Homes that are only 50-75 years old seem to have larger carports instead of garages.

* I answered my own questions. A model T was 66 inches wide but had 8 inch running boards on either side so the crew cabin is closer to 50 inches. The doors, if it had them, would be shorter as well. A model S is 77 inches wide so that's probably 24 inches difference in clearance.