Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed • Hacker News Board

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#391

Post by lacion » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 9:16 PM UTC

fchollet wrote: post #84

jules wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the cost of living in Paris less than a normal US city?

Paris is much less expensive than the bay area, but more expensive than the average US city. In fact, it's barely less expensive than NYC, one of the most expensive US cities. Also, if you are working remotely you cannot command a bay area salary.

i been remote for the last 6 years working on 2 different bay area companies.

on both occasions i commanded a Bay Area salary. still do. remote from Spain.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#392

Post by lacion » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 9:23 PM UTC

casta wrote: post #177

themartorana wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2000-3000 Euro/month is incredibly low. Fresh devs around here go for $50k+ annually, and experience costs 6 figures easily (and I'm in Philadelphia, I'm not talking SF/NY numbers). Edit (pressed submit early): some companies use remote workers to reduce costs, but I wouldn't expect to pay such a low $36k max in Europe. Remote, if managed well, is just as good as in-house. You're not worth significantly less.

I don't know how it works in Spain, but in Italy the cost of an employee is probably much more than his/her salary. The employer gives you a salary, then they have to pay on top of it ~30% of INAIL, INPS etc. (pension, health "insurance" including sick days and so on) and ~10% of TFR (fund you get back at the end of your career.) In the U.S. those are costs you have to remove from your salary. So, 3000 euros a month…

in spain is the same, the socialist fallacy.

your feeding corrupt governments in a mandatory way with out a way to get out of the system (i don't want a government pension or the so called "free" social/medical care)

in spain your pretty much putting your money in fund they may not be there by the time you retire.

so making 3k a month is peanuts there is no way you can save for retirement.

most specialist will tell you that you will need to save anything from 500k to 1M for retirement. if you have kids, 3k its probably a stretch specially if you want to give them a good education.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#393

Post by wallflower » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 9:26 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #233

wallflower wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, first of all you need to be fluent in three or four languages My understanding is that English to CEFRL level B1 was mandatory to work at a multi-national company. Are there other languages required?

Yes, it happens. In any case 500 millions of people have spanish as native language in the world so "mandatory" is a relative term. You will need chinese to work in China, and spanish or portuguese to work in South-America. If you don't speak Catalan and live in Cataluña you just will never finish the middle school. Or if you want to work for the administration you will be ostracised or directly banned for working fo…

> If you don't speak Catalan and live in Cataluña you just will never finish the middle school.

My Catalan friends exclusively spoke Spanish at home to their kids. Their son who just started Kindergarten is struggling right now but his older sister picked Catalan up to fluency after 1-2 years, so they are not worried.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#394

Post by rm_-rf_slash » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 9:27 PM UTC

logingone wrote: post #374

knocte wrote: post #243

> Pimentel’s client asked him for list of candidates trained in “Agile” project management techniques for helping companies boost their productivity by using more I.T. systems. The client was offering as much as 200,000 euros ($220,000) a year -- almost 10 times the average salary in Spain. > But such people are thin on the ground in Spain. It takes at least eight months for an experienced software developer to earn…

Agile is barely different to how teams I worked on in the 90s operated, naturally, without trying to implement and enforce a new holy grail, chase the rainbow routine of machinic efficiency. I find it really is much ado about nothing, the emperors new clothes. An anal retentive formalising and trumpeting of common sense. I recall only one project which was waterfall, and the rest were used as soon as they were useful…

The reason development methodologies exist even in the face of common sense is the same reason management metrics have been around for ages: they aren't for the people doing the work, they're for the managers to quantify the work their team does for the sake of their managers.

Not every manager can understand every facet of the operation two levels down. Methodologies not only give them an understandable metric of what is going on, they also have something to point to when upper-upper management is considering a lower manager for a promotion or trying to figure out why things are taking too long or not working as expected.

Development methodologies have a place, that's for sure, but structure for structure's sake - in my experience - tends to exist primarily for the benefit of the managers, rather than the engineers.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#395

Post by tptacek » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 9:30 PM UTC

x0x0 wrote: post #381

tptacek wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. cárnicas is an awesome term for what native English markets would call a "body shop". 2. You're probably looking more for the term "meat market" than for "butcher". Unless, is part of the implication that a cárnicas somehow chops up the time of a bunch of FTE's?

ps -- in english, meat market colloquially means a bar where young people go to get drunk and meet one night stands. Stereotypically frat boys w/ popped collars and sorority sisters in miniskirts. Before gordaco uses that in conversation, I thought I'd share...

Also true! I just wondered if that was closer to the spirit of the Spanish term. It would be funny if it wasn't, and they really were trying to evoke people being cut up by butchers.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#396

Post by throwaway_9191 » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 9:35 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #371

throwaway_9191 wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, you mirror the Spanish public opinion very well. The pattern is clear: you only respect state backed cultures, my culture and language are mere nuisances that waste people's time. That's one of the main reasons we need to break away from Spain ASAP. Before it can complete the cultural genocide it has repeatedly attempted during the last 3 centuries.

I'll hire the Argentinian. Looks like a less problematic fit. Maybe this could be one of the problems here?.

So people who know more languages are now a problem. Please, stop it.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#397

Post by kpil » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 9:38 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #274

wastedhours wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

200,000 euros is possible for what's essentially a contract digital transformation consultant, and there are agile qualifications on offer - and when you're dealing with the enterprise, they're often more valued than experience.

It is possible, but that's a very niche market. When you need people who can deal with multiple layers, including senior execs, and run tech teams, you are usually not looking for developers anyway. I don't find it very strange there is a shortage of those; I think you'll find that in most countries. It depends on the exact job description as this is all a bit vague though.

You know, there is a bit of politics, but I've come to the conclusion that it's better to just hose down the managers with "techy-stuff" rather than try to sell them power points with bullshit. After all, if they are making the decision, they should actually either get it, or trust you to get it for them.

The one thing that does not fly is developers that does not know the business case, or worse, those that don't care and acts like the company's purpose is to give them new toys (frameworks) to play with. But grokking a business case is marginally harder than resolving a merge-conflict so most people are actually presentable in a steering committee meeting.

Anyway; 200.000 € is probably not a developer, but possibly someone with a development background.

Unfortunately only a few people can sell things to the (non-tech) management - that is typically harder for us square-headed developers, as you have to be able to skimp some details in order to convey the big idea. But selling ideas is a unique skill anyway.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#398

Post by lacion » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

nostrebored wrote: post #150

winestock wrote: post #24

Check out this little gem from the article: “Education and work exist in two alternative worlds that don’t really connect,” Gomez said. “While in other nations, like the U.S., college education is designed to get you a job, that’s not the case in Spain.” This may be a case of "the grass is always greener on the other side of the hill."

Greener but not false. There is a reason why a US education is highly valued by exceptional international students and by multinational companies.

corporate you mean, most startups and valued tech companies don't give any credit to formal education, and the real balance is moved by experience, seconded only by cultural fit.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#399

Post by Retric » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 9:42 PM UTC

kpil wrote: post #390

logingone wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agile is barely different to how teams I worked on in the 90s operated, naturally, without trying to implement and enforce a new holy grail, chase the rainbow routine of machinic efficiency. I find it really is much ado about nothing, the emperors new clothes. An anal retentive formalising and trumpeting of common sense. I recall only one project which was waterfall, and the rest were used as soon as they were useful…

Sure. A lot of "Agile" is actually cargo-cult agile, used as a vehicle for self-promotion: The daily scrum, the sticky-notes or the Jira.board, and all that other ceremony. Typically retrofitted on top of a defunct process, with separate requirement analysts, "software architects" whatever that means, and a lot of control functions and processes inherited from the manufacturing industry. What makes that work is proba…

Process is not going to fix a toxic work environment. But, it can make a positive difference over time.

Many teams start out productive, but they also tend to degrade over time. How many 10 year old projects have you been happy to start working on? How about 20?

Those are the places most in need of someone to cut the bullshit.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#400

Post by vonnik » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 9:47 PM UTC

The skills gap is very real in America, too. It can be hard to find the people you need. And many of the folks who are out of work don't fit the bill. There are specific training programs, sponsored by large companies, that are trying to give post-high-school trainees the right vocational skills... (Can't remember the names atm!)