The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it • Hacker News Board

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#391

Post by saynsedit » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 5:06 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #349

saynsedit wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know anyone personally who has said this?

I don't even know anyone personally who has expressed any favorable view of Trump. Yet clearly they exist in fairly large numbers, so I don't think that should prevent me from acknowledging them.

The support of Trump has data behind it.

Second-hand anecdotes of people claiming they'll vote for Trump just to see the system come down is not data.

Without data, it may be such a minority of people that it's not worth significant consideration in a discussion. I'm apt to believe it's an extreme minority given it's an extreme view.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#392

Post by ars » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

njloof wrote: post #245

ars wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the joke, but after having dealt with them, I would personally love it if the government got out of medicare. Just give everyone a voucher and let them buy their own health insurance using it. The amount of paperwork, and details to keep track of and calculate was absolutely unreal. I have BOXES full of paper from medicare, there was so much I could barely keep up. The worst was the arcane and utterly confusing…

By contrast, the paperwork I do (as a client) under Canadian single payer Medicare is nil, and my supplementary insurance (vision/dental) can be filled out online in minutes. Sounds like you need a better system in the US. Maybe not so many different stakeholders in the system?

That's how it works for commercial plans. Very easy, simple paperwork.

They have to compete with each other, if they were confusing no one would sign up.

> Sounds like you need a better system in the US.

It does work for most people, it's the edge cases that fail.

> Maybe not so many different stakeholders in the system?

Making medicare normal would require much higher taxes (medicare/medicaid hospital payments are below costs and are subsidized by commercial plans). People would then save money on commercial plans.

Net dollars would not change, or maybe go down, but the distribution would change, some winners, some losers.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#393

Post by emsy » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #247

emsy wrote: post #167

What I're read so far about pro-leavers: -They are stupid. -They are xenophobic racists (over 50% of the population!). -Trump welcomes the Brexit, so being pro-leave is stupid. -Old people vote "leave" since they don't have to face the consequences as long as the young people, and old people have no clue. -"Leave" votes come mainly from E.U. subsidized areas, thus they bite the hand that feeds them. -Pro-leave doesn'…

Well, what are those reasons that are so impactful that people should have voted "Leave"? Because I have not really heard a single informed argument about that, and the public discourse for Leave has shown an enormous gap in knowledge about what the EU actually is.

The sovereignity of the UK is the most important argument. The way the EU resolves regulations is an undemocratic process (for the citizens of the affected countries, not inside the EU). Most people dismiss this argument as conspiracy BS, but I can encourage you to read up about it.

Of course many people voted because they want to "close the borders" but: 1) This doesn't invalidate the sovereignity argument. 2) The protectionism/anti-immigration stance is a reaction to the existing politics, not the cause. And it's something we currently see all over Europe.

There are more valid arguments for leaving the EU, but I think the argument for democracy is the most important one. Saying there are no good arguments to leave is dishonest or ignorant.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#394

Post by nickik » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #247

emsy wrote: post #167

What I're read so far about pro-leavers: -They are stupid. -They are xenophobic racists (over 50% of the population!). -Trump welcomes the Brexit, so being pro-leave is stupid. -Old people vote "leave" since they don't have to face the consequences as long as the young people, and old people have no clue. -"Leave" votes come mainly from E.U. subsidized areas, thus they bite the hand that feeds them. -Pro-leave doesn'…

Well, what are those reasons that are so impactful that people should have voted "Leave"? Because I have not really heard a single informed argument about that, and the public discourse for Leave has shown an enormous gap in knowledge about what the EU actually is.

If you don't search for it, you want find it. I am not sure if the "Leave" people voted for it for the right reasons or the wrong reasons (xenophobia).

I think its fairly easy to make a case of why the EU is a bad institution. I have made so here and other places. I think people are blinded by the idea of the EU but ignore the actual EU. Can anybody deny that the EU has shown horrible management in everything related to economics? We have a Great Depression level crisis and now a horrible slow recovery. 90% of this hole crisis could have been avoid if the EU and specially EMU were such horribly setup institutions. The EU is not really democratic either, when it should be the most democratic. It should improve on the state of institutional democracy, while in reality its a very clear step back. Take a look at Swiss Federalism and Direct Democracy, its a much better set up for a system but many of the ideas are nowhere to be found in the EU.

Britain has economic problems right now because a lot is changing, but I see no reason that the long term growth should be negatively impacted by this. In the long term I think it can be a net positive. It all depends on how Britain will operate going forward.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#395

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

keithpeter wrote: post #356

cm3 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't leave yet and may not. I feel like this has been used as a vehicle for Boris Johnson to increase his chances to be prime minister and others' to provoke changes. It seems to me that Britain didn't seriously consider the repercussions of an exit that doesn't involve cherry-picking.

The referendum is advisory and not binding. I think this particular Golem has too much momentum now to simply decline the advice of the electorate, however it did occur to me that Cameron's 3 month delay in applying Section 50 would allow the attention of the public to be distracted to some extent.

> The referendum is advisory and not binding.

OTOH, the referendum did kill the Britain-EU agreement on new terms -- as that was expressly conditioned on a "Remain" vote -- so while it doesn't legally obligate the government to withdraw from the EU, in addition to creating a strong public expectation (both in the UK and in the rest of the EU) of withdrawal, it also makes the conditions for staying in the EU worse for the UK than they were before the referendum.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#396

Post by anu_gupta » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

Inthenameofmine wrote: post #292

partiallypro wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also very hard for a poorer or even middle class immigrant to move to a place like Switzerland because the cost of living is so high. This creates an environment of unanimity you wouldn't see in more diverse cultures like the U.S. or the U.K. I think that's largely why Switzerland and the Scandinavian states get accolades from U.S. politicians (not as much division.) But they don't seem to get that the cultures…

Well, it's not like the swiss didn't have their fare share of ethnic issues in th past. Keep in mind that Switzerland is linguistically diverse. The difference is that because of direct democracy and every male being armed to the teeth, the government steps in and tries to reduce inequality. That way democracy works again. I mean, Jura used to have straight up ethnic riots.

It's also not like your 'perfect' system wasn't financed by of the dirtiest money humanity has ever seen.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#397

Post by zghst » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

jstimpfle wrote: post #322

aidos wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I was thinking today, we could weight the votes by life expectancy. The fewer years left in your life, the less your vote counts. In this case I wouldn't have to go home and explain to my children why it is that they probably won't be allowed to go and live in Europe for a bit when they hit their 20s anymore.

That would be a pretty one-sided weighting. And it penalizes not only age but education and "wisdom" (assuming these are correlated).

I think for the majority of the population, it does

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#398

Post by jacalata » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 5:08 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #176

rtpg wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly the India comparison is "slightly" exaggerated. British people could vote for European MPs. It's not like the UK was colonised by Europe. There is devolution of sovereignty but you're gonna basically end up with that with the kind of trade pacts the EU demands anyways. Lots of symbolism involved of course.

I'm not saying it's literally as bad as colonization. But the symbolism is useful in showing that the focus on economic impacts is utterly misguided. Democracy isn't about optimizing for economics; it's about people deciding how they want to be governed. "Who should be able to tell me what to do?" That's a sacrosanct decision! It shouldn't be made by bureaucrats and intellectuals looking at the impact on currency pri…

The Leave campaign spent plenty of time telling people that the UK would be economically better off without the EU, £350m per week better off. Lots of bullshit about how if it weren't for the EU they could afford to support farmers and so on. People voted against it because they think immigrants are taking their jobs and EU regulations are driving British producers out of business.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#399

Post by thomasahle » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 5:08 PM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #380

fnovd wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if your government voted for a lifetime stipend of $10000/month for everyone over 65, to be paid for by higher taxes on renters, students, and earners? I think there is a breaking point where it is unacceptable to support the wants of an aging population over the future of the young, even by majority vote. However, I don't think the Brexit falls into that category.

Here's the thing: old people don't vote for that kind of thing, at least not if they have children and grandchildren. They've invested decades of heavy personal sacrifice into building a future for their posterity. They're not going to counteract that lifelong goal and knowingly vote for something that will inflict real pain or hindrance on the generations they've parented. Personally I believe the elderly make much…

> elderly make much better decisions when voting precisely because they have something that gives their votes far-reaching meaning. Young voters care primarily about getting what they want in the moment.

I'd be more positive about of future if this were the case. Do you have any examples of where this has happened?

I always had the impression older people voted more conservatively, because they were tired of things changing, and mostly happy with their wealth and position in life.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#400

Post by zghst » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 5:08 PM UTC

aidos wrote: post #222

netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

So I was thinking today, we could weight the votes by life expectancy. The fewer years left in your life, the less your vote counts. In this case I wouldn't have to go home and explain to my children why it is that they probably won't be allowed to go and live in Europe for a bit when they hit their 20s anymore.

They can still go and live in Europe, not a big deal