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Bootcamps vs. College

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Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#391

Post by PhasmaFelis »

mikehollinger wrote: post #365
velodrome wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are bootcamps any different than vocational schools?

They're not. I've said this before [1], but bootcamps are training programming's equivalent to the technician. Techs have a very needed place. A technician can become a master of a trade, and with experience design something that's awesome (see motorcycle craftsman). However, a technician will likely not design a Turbofan engine from scratch. Code camps are (in my opinion) a sign that programming is bifurcating into…

So where does one go to train as a software engineer? Many four-year computer science programs train you to become a CS professor, not to work in industry, which would be fine (most "soft" degrees do the same) if they didn't pitch their CS degrees as preparing you for an exciting and lucrative career, more like a law or medicine degree than an art or philosophy degree.

I made some really valuable networking connections in college that helped me get my first several industry jobs--which is good, because I sure as hell didn't have any practical skills to sell myself with. Fortunately I was able to learn up on the job and get the skills I needed (at the expense of my first job's production schedule, sadly), but I was pretty unhappy once I realized how little I'd bought with all that tuition money.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#392

Post by megapatch »

This is obviously comparing different things. Bootcamps and College are not replacing each other. But there is a difference between learning because you are hungry for knowledge (college) and learning because you are hungry for food (boot camp, you need to do your job). The former makes you better in the trade.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#393

Post by chris11 »

busterarm wrote: post #151
lloyd-christmas wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can definitely see that distinction. We've never interviewed from anyone excluding the three you mentioned and fullstack academy, which all have the same general process.

FA and I think Flatiron School are also in the "alright" category. All of these mentioned are just "alright". I don't think any of them are really excellent. I have just met a high percentage of GA grads who aren't successful in their search and give up after a few months.

So what are the excellent programs in your opinion?

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#394

Post by 35bge57dtjku »

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #205
brudgers wrote: post #184

There are several factors that don't enter this analysis. 1. Bootcamps can be selective over a range of non-academic criteria such as interview skills, personal hygene, and prior work experience. Or to put it another way, unlike a public university, a boot camp can select for culture fit both in its internal cohorts and in the workplaces it targets. 2. Bootcamps tend to attract people with previous work experience: s…

My girlfriend did a bootcamp. It was a very useful experience, and overall we would recommend it. All your points are valid, including the last one unfortunately. That was the one black point about my gf's experience when she was having trouble finding something that suited her: they dangled the threat of dropping her from their network. Also, I should add that bootcamps like hers aren't a "Zero to Hero" offering. Th…

> That was the one black point about my gf's experience when she was having trouble finding something that suited her: they dangled the threat of dropping her from their network.

Are you saying she was turning down legitimate offers because it wasn't exactly what she wanted, or she wasn't getting offers and they were threatening her to get her to try harder, or something else?

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#395

Post by pjmlp »

pandler wrote: post #385
mikehollinger wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not. I've said this before [1], but bootcamps are training programming's equivalent to the technician. Techs have a very needed place. A technician can become a master of a trade, and with experience design something that's awesome (see motorcycle craftsman). However, a technician will likely not design a Turbofan engine from scratch. Code camps are (in my opinion) a sign that programming is bifurcating into…

I came to the comments to see if anyone had already commented on the engineer vs technician aspect of this. My experience is that the divide is much more established in the Mechanical Engineering world, where the difference in what you learn in school and the role that you play in industry is much more pronounced as a result of having e.g. a B.S. in ME vs an associates degree in something like Engineering Tech. My un…

> Since moving to software, it seems there's little preventing anyone who can sling some code from calling themselves Software Engineers

In many countries to do that, you need to have a certified degree by the Engineers association (or whatever is called), otherwise you can be charged for doing so.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#396

Post by pjmlp »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #391
mikehollinger wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not. I've said this before [1], but bootcamps are training programming's equivalent to the technician. Techs have a very needed place. A technician can become a master of a trade, and with experience design something that's awesome (see motorcycle craftsman). However, a technician will likely not design a Turbofan engine from scratch. Code camps are (in my opinion) a sign that programming is bifurcating into…

So where does one go to train as a software engineer? Many four-year computer science programs train you to become a CS professor, not to work in industry, which would be fine (most "soft" degrees do the same) if they didn't pitch their CS degrees as preparing you for an exciting and lucrative career, more like a law or medicine degree than an art or philosophy degree. I made some really valuable networking connectio…

To the university, of course.

In Portugal, our CS degrees are called "Degree in Software Engineering" and have a mix of everything that is relevant to the world of computers.

If you want pure CS style math, then you need to take a degree in Mathematics with computing branch.

Also we do have an Engineers association that validates which degrees are allowed to call themselves as such.

We are not alone, most European degrees are like that.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#397

Post by hwang89 »

WWKong wrote: post #367
hwang89 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of bootcampers already have an undergraduate degree and years of life experience - enough to drive them to take on more debt and change careers. Pretty sure this is the harder "real world" path to an entry-level coding job.

Then it isn't really a bootcamp vs college discussion, is it?

Agreed, the author should have specified undergrad CS degree.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#398

Post by akubera »

littleweep wrote: post #380
mikehollinger wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not. I've said this before [1], but bootcamps are training programming's equivalent to the technician. Techs have a very needed place. A technician can become a master of a trade, and with experience design something that's awesome (see motorcycle craftsman). However, a technician will likely not design a Turbofan engine from scratch. Code camps are (in my opinion) a sign that programming is bifurcating into…

I'm not sure what this means. Do you think there are smart people who would or could be good developers who did not major in computer science and later went on to attend a 'bootcamp'? Do you think it's possible that developers who are not good could graduate from college with CS degrees?

Are you implying that being a programming "technician" is equivalent to being a bad programmer? Nobody has said "good developer" before you did.

I think the point is not to base the "goodness" of the developer on the person themselves - of course there will be people who 'get it' and excel at programming whether they go to bootcamp or college (or are self-taught for that matter), just as there will be people who don't get it, and they can just squeak through either program.

The point is to recognize that they are taught different (but overlapping) skill sets; skills that are hard to differentiate and could - from a business perspective - yield the same final product (user clicks button, correct things happen).

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#399

Post by argonaut »

gohrt wrote: post #333
argonaut wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, most SV companies will pay a recruiting fee for any engineers they hire, even junior engineers. This is okay because it is typically a percentage of first year salary - so the fee is less for junior candidates.

There's no particular guarantee that a bootcamp grad will find their job via a bootcamp referral.

Correct. That does not refute my point at all, which was that seattledev14 is mistaken.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#400

Post by lordnacho »

Well this is interesting to me, as I've recently worked with a bootcamp graduate, and I've been looking over my brother's shoulder while he finishes his CS degree at Columbia.

- Bootcamp lady was very able on the iOS project we were working on. She seemed to know where things were in XCode, and she understood Obj-C and Swift (no embarrassing questions about what classes are). She didn't seem to know about other environments (and said so), but we were doing an iOS project.

- Ivy league guy seems to have touched every common language (c, c++, Python, HTML/JS/CSS, R, and more), along with common tools (vim, pyCharm, tmux, gcc, VC++, laundry list). I was surprised by how practical it was, actually. I thought it would be obscure algorithms the whole way, but I guess they take the theory and essentially force you to learn the practical aspects by implementing things in relevant stacks.

- Bootcamp lady was very good working in our little MVP team. Understood how common management ideas like Agile work. Conscientious with looking at the Trello board, asking questions in Slack. Not sure if this is just her personality, or because they tell you how software teams work.

- Ivy league guy had lots of group projects, but they tended to be dysfunctional. There was always someone shirking. Some people had no clue what was being built or how to compile it. There didn't seem to be any management oversight, just blind "let's get this piece done" type organisation.

- Degree guy has way more breadth. He was routinely looking at machine learning, implementing demos with scikit, setting up VMs for himself, looking at assembly, looking at SQL optimisation, and other diverse tasks. Bootcamp grad didn't need this stuff, but also would need significant training to get to that level.

- Ambitions were similar. My background is in financial code, and they both want to do that. Bootcamp grad has quite a mountain to climb, particularly with things that take more explanation than MVC. She has a good attitude, so if someone would teach her she could do it. My brother is better positioned though, and would need less teaching to reach the same place.

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