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State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

theguardian.com

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Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#391

Post by powertower »

elros wrote: post #209

I am French and have friends and family in Paris, fortunately they are all safe. I am however in shock and can't really process much except for shedding tears. I feel the strong need to point out that in these difficult times in Europe and the world, we CANNOT allow right-wing political extremism to use them to gather power. THIS IS NOT ABOUT MUSLIMS, IMMIGRANTS OR WHATNOT. THIS IS ABOUT CRAZY PEOPLE.

> we CANNOT allow right-wing political extremism to use them to gather power. THIS IS NOT ABOUT MUSLIMS, IMMIGRANTS OR WHATNOT. THIS IS ABOUT CRAZY PEOPLE.

People who oppose rampant immigration, incompatible cultures, and hostile groups, are "extremists"?

You are living in a climate where Muslims flood out into the streets and chant death threats (and then kill people) because someone made a joke about Muhammad.

Bending over to these people and blaming yourself is not the way forwards - unless you want more of this chaos.

France has one of the largest Muslim populations in Europe, and 20% of this group are brazen enough to sympathize and justify with terrorism when polled. There is a correlation here.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#392

Post by RockyMcNuts »

Gatsky wrote: post #9

A disaster. Obviously don't know yet who is responsible, but I don't understand why France is being targeted in this way. They are hardly terrorist enemy number one.

France colonized North Africa, and has approaching 10% Muslim population, many somewhat marginalized. They have a pretty strong historical and current involvement in the Middle East and a lot of people who could potentially be radicalized.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#393

Post by dan_dimerman »

jacquesm wrote: post #355
bengalister wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French too living in France, but sorry I am fed up of hearing that. Don't you think there's something wrong with Islam and its worshippers in the current days ? Not a single week without hearing about an attack made by islam integrists: Beiruth yesterday, Ankara few weeks ago. It is global, not a few crazy people, tens of thousands of them. Muslims in France have had hard time condeming the Charlie hebdo's attacks an…

I disagree, strongly. I disagree because specifically this is the reaction that these attacks are supposed to provoke leading to a further split of society and if possible an even more fertile ground for further radicalization. Essentially that's the other stroke of the piston. If you really want the engine to stop then please do not react in the way these assholes want you to. Islam has nothing to do with this whats…

it's not a coincidence. I think the correlation between Islam and violence is too strong to ignore for tolerance and political correctness sake.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#394

Post by sohaeb »

ino wrote: post #361
sohaeb wrote: post #342

As a muslim lurker of this amazing site I would like to express my sympathy to those who died and hope everyone will be safe. Also, those with comments that are trying to cause fear and hatred, you are just making other muslims living in the west feel scared and sad. I swear, right now im scared taht one day some people will be treating muslims just like how Americans used to treat black people in Slavery era. Even w…

Don't fear, we'll get through it. But There is real slavery going on in the emirates and qatar right now if you want to get mad.

Totally agree, but we cannot generalize this, I used to work in UAE in construction sites and the company I used to work for used to respect the rights of the labors. most of them I made friends with and they never showed dissatisfaction.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#395

Post by jacquesm »

tomatioaz wrote: post #265
jacquesm wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that. But that still does not mean that being a Muslim has anything to do with it. In fact, even if it turns out that all of the attackers were Muslims then that still holds true. How that works I'll leave as an exercise for you to work out but let's just say that the basis of a solution to this whole problem is somewhere in there and that I strongly believe that it starts with a complete lack of genera…

I don't feel sorry for individuals that take up arms against me. Every individual is responsible for his or her actions. This goes far beyond "shared traits". They organize against us with a dogmatic reverence for violence known as radical Islam, and your dogmatic tolerance for it allows it to metastasize.

What in what I wrote makes you believe I tolerate radical Islam?

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#396

Post by stvswn »

jacquesm wrote: post #355
bengalister wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French too living in France, but sorry I am fed up of hearing that. Don't you think there's something wrong with Islam and its worshippers in the current days ? Not a single week without hearing about an attack made by islam integrists: Beiruth yesterday, Ankara few weeks ago. It is global, not a few crazy people, tens of thousands of them. Muslims in France have had hard time condeming the Charlie hebdo's attacks an…

I disagree, strongly. I disagree because specifically this is the reaction that these attacks are supposed to provoke leading to a further split of society and if possible an even more fertile ground for further radicalization. Essentially that's the other stroke of the piston. If you really want the engine to stop then please do not react in the way these assholes want you to. Islam has nothing to do with this whats…

You can simultaneously fight against right-wing politicians who would capitalize on terrorism and also acknowledge that these aren't "crazy people who happen to be Muslims," these are committed killers who are murdering in the name of a particular strain of revolutionary, extreme Islam. If a well-organized and philosophically consistent group of Christians were organizing mass shootings with motives gleaned from radical Christian theology, you would be completely justified in pointing to a problem within radical Christianity. For example: I'm a moderate Catholic myself. I condemn the Westboro Baptist Church and their strain of apocalyptic nonsense. If you want to criticize fundamental Christianity on the basis that it spawned those maniacs, go ahead. Just the same, please don't pretend that somehow these acts are completely divorced of Islam. We're not stupid, we can distinguish between moderates and terrorists. It's intellectually vapid to say over and over that somehow an ideology firmly based in one religion cannot be criticized on the basis of their professed beliefs and motivations.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#397

Post by kgwgk »

Houshalter wrote: post #311
Shivetya wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you underestimate the impact this type of terrorism has. The real massive danger is constantly trying to downplay it. The simple fact is, when facing an irrational enemy the last thing you can do is try to shift the blame to those who react.

What impact? They kill a few people. That's terrible, but it's not even enough to dent the murder statistics. Let alone all causes of premature death. The only impact is people's reaction to it. Blame should be shifted to those who react. It absolutely should be downplayed.

There were less than 100 homicides in Paris in 2012 and 2013 [1]. More than 100 might have been killed today.

[1] http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2015/05/05/01016-201...

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#398

Post by jacquesm »

huac wrote: post #367
jacquesm wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fairly easy. Airports are closed right now, the old border posts, even though they have been un-manned for quite a while (but not everywhere, as I found out to my surprise a few months ago, a so called 'spot check' was set up on one of the old border posts) can be easily re-established using military personel. It's a lot easier to re-establish something that was there before than it is to do it from scratch an…

Airports are not closed, Air France is still flying in/out of Paris.

You are right, FR shows some planes landing others just departed.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#399

Post by Fezzik »

dragonwriter wrote: post #345
Fezzik wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I wish this were true, do you not think the primary impetus is (likely) religious? I would wager these people are not crazy in any clinical sense; they have been deluded by a religious upbringing and culturally supported religious fervor. It is disingenuous to say that religion is not a contributing factor, if not the primary factor. It is like Steven Weinberg summarized: With or without [religion] you would ha…

> While I wish this were true, do you not think the primary impetus is (likely) religious? Not really; religious identity politics are often used by leaders (whose motivation seems to be more power-seeking than genuinely religious) to connect with foot-soldiers (whose real impetus seems often to be desperation to improve conditions for their family, or themselves, or to redress wrongs they feel have been done to thei…

I probably ascribe to much influence to religion alone on its adherents, especially in the middle-east. That said, it seems the sheer number of crazy wars people have fought in the name of religion - the 30 Years' War, The Crusades, the Sudanese War, etc... - would indicate that at least some number of the participants are involved purely because they think Heaven/Jannah/something else awaits and a god is being pleased.

Desperation, poverty, redress of (centuries long) wrongs, and seeing no other option than to join the movement do make sense as motives though.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#400

Post by jacquesm »

mc32 wrote: post #387
jacquesm wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary cause of these incidents seems to be radicalization of segments of society with 'nothing to lose'. The societal problems involved in the creation of such segments and what can be done about them is a large and complex issue in which some technology will for sure be useful but which is first and foremost a people problem. The seeds for these issues were sown many years ago (and in quite a few cases with th…

Some of it is attributable to people with nothing to lose; however a good many have lots to lose, personally as well as socially at large. It's more about ideology than actually personal grievances.

From what I've read on the subject the key unifying element seems to be that those who do these deeds want to 'matter' somehow, even if that can only be in a negative way. How that ties into psychology I have no idea but if you have something to lose that balance shifts measurably, but even then there are still people that can be successfully radicalized. It's a tough problem, that's for sure.
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