What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#391

Post by Bostonian » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:04 PM UTC

davmre wrote: post #323

kisstheblade wrote: post #317

One question. Why is it important to make, quote: "computer science more attractive to women..."? I mean I get that the sex discrimination stuff and treatment of women we read here on hacker news is bad and of course it would help if there were more women in tech. But other than that, if you think of the women in general and not some "diversity would be good" (which it probably would be), why the worry? Why aren't we…

The greedy answer: because systematically discouraging 50% of the brainpower of the human species from entering one of our most productive and simultaneously short-staffed occupations is bad for technological progress and the growth of global wealth. The humanist/utilitarian answer: because computer science is intrinsically awesome and rewarding, so global utility is maximized by ensuring that anyone who might be int…

We don't know that 50% of the brainpower relevant to computer science is female. Male and female brains differ, and it is quite possible that they choose to specialize in different areas.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#392

Post by littletimmy » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:16 PM UTC

zamalek wrote: post #91

hueving wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A horrifying reminder of the capability for critical thought of the general population! This is to be expected though. Removing gender associations is going to be seen as an attack on existing peoples' upbringings. Anything that falls into that category is going to be a painful fight.

There's an effect I forget the name of. Basically, if you give someone something and then some time later take it away they experience anger. When you give rights to one group, you have to remove them from another (important: even if the second group had rights that were not rightfully theirs). Men previously and incorrectly had exclusive access to jobs (and votes, and so forth). By giving women fair chance to those…

Here's your problem: You think that historically, the injustice is that men oppress women.

In reality, the injustice is that a small group of very powerful men oppress all women and nearly all men.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#393

Post by robwilliams » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 2:55 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #367

bduerst wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was probably just the writers trying to use an inverted trope: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InvertedTrope

What's inverted about "bumbling idiot male hacker"?

>a trope that typically applies to males is applied to a female character, or the other way around (Gender-Inverted Trope)

If the trope is "basement dwelling male nerd = good hacker" then they're inverting it and making the female a good hacker.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#394

Post by geebee » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 2:59 PM UTC

muddyrivers wrote: post #274

duaneb wrote: post #251

No matter who you are, applying broad strokes to the industry is going to paint many incorrectly. The idea that there is one factor that "really" keeps women out of tech implies that the other reasons are false. In reality, it is very subjective. I would also have been put off by her experience with pressure to "act like a man" and I'm a man. But, just as anecdotally, I only encountered this once: the cs department o…

I am a software engineer, male, Asian. Somehow I can relate to the article. Although I was always one of the top students in math and science and enrolled the top university, I was both intimidated and kind of disgusted by the culture stereotypes at the beginning of my career. I had self doubts if I would ever become a good software engineer, since I was far from the stereotypes. Sometimes, I was deeply disgusted by…

This is a really good post. I identify with a lot in it.

I double majored in english literature and math, and I added the math late. I was very interested in CS and math (it wasn't a thing yet in the mid 90s but now they call my interests "data science"). Of course, aspirations about what life will be like when you "grow up" are always a bit of a naive fantasy, but I thought (or at least hoped) that I would be able to join a more urbane, sophisticated, adult world at some point. That may sound a bit naive, but there's nothing wrong with aspiring to it. When I joined the tech working world, I was disappointed that my office manager seems to think that a foosball table and video game machine turn fit into some kind of nirvana, or that my office went to dave n busters for a retreat… it's not that I can't enjoy it, I can, but I heard about the retreats friends in law firms were taking, and I was envious of how much more sophisticated, adult and grown up it all sounded). I don't mean to sound like I'm putting life in a law firm as all roses, I am absolutely aware that it isn't, but I was envious that they seemed to have joined an adult world whereas tech seemed to be a relatively immature, almost extended adolescent culture.

Unfortunately, over time, I've slowly started to believe there may be something more insidious in the juvenility of tech culture, and that it may be imposed as much from the outside as the inside. I'm not sure the people who hire programmers really want to view them as adults. More like minions, talented but immature young men rotating through, happy with their video games and foosball tables and salaries that pay well enough to enjoy a delayed adolescence but never enough to put down roots and raise a family where they live and work… ultimately, I think this is damaging and may very well deter a lot of potentially talented people from entering the field, or cause others to leave.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#395

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 3:10 PM UTC

wtbob wrote: post #170

Mz wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't hurt my feelings. It does, however, make it harder for most women to participate here. The correct way to handle it is to either find out my gender or speak as if you do not know what it is instead of assuming I am male. If you do not know my gender, it takes very little effort to speak in a way that admits you do not know it: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/04/what-fool-be...

> The correct way to handle it is to either find out my gender or speak as if you do not know what it is And the correct way to do the latter, in English, is to use male pronouns. It's different in other languages, no doubt.

Singular 'they' is just as legitimate an English construction as singular 'you'.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#396

Post by ElComradio » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 3:14 PM UTC

rimantas wrote: post #337

ElComradio wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most egregious recent example I have seen is Dark Matter. The women are all hyper-capable, responsible and determined. The men are all petty, flawed, impulsive and frequently fighting with each other. It's absurd if you realize what is happening.

Well, try to portray them the other way around and see what reaction you get.

Doesn't have to be either or. Currently Hollywood appears to be terrified of having a female character who screws a lot or has petty motivations.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#397

Post by GhotiFish » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 3:14 PM UTC

Bostonian wrote: post #391

davmre wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The greedy answer: because systematically discouraging 50% of the brainpower of the human species from entering one of our most productive and simultaneously short-staffed occupations is bad for technological progress and the growth of global wealth. The humanist/utilitarian answer: because computer science is intrinsically awesome and rewarding, so global utility is maximized by ensuring that anyone who might be int…

We don't know that 50% of the brainpower relevant to computer science is female. Male and female brains differ, and it is quite possible that they choose to specialize in different areas.

You're right. It could be that women are in fact far more effective programmers than men, and we're missing out on 70% of the brain power.

hard to say.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#398

Post by bduerst » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 3:36 PM UTC

pkinsky wrote: post #291

bduerst wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>glaring injustices Kind of a false dichotomy. The APA has found that men are more likely to become substance abusers, which is linked to homelessness and conviction rates. Why not help both men and women? Why does one need to be first?

> Why not help both men and women? Why does one need to be first? I'm not arguing that we should or should not help some group. I just think that if every instance of disparate impact is assumed to be solely due to discrimination, then we also need to start treating homelessness and the prison-industrial complex as gendered issues disproportionately affecting men. > The APA has found that men are more likely to becom…

It is - in fact, the preexisting ideas of masculinity is a bias that makes men feel that they don't need to seek help when they really need it [1], which can lead to self medication and substance abuse.

That was the point - that these gender biases exist for both sexes and need to be addressed at the same time (not one before the other).

[1] http://www.apa.org/monitor/jun05/helping.aspx

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#399

Post by gdubs » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 4:31 PM UTC

T2_t2 wrote: post #278

gdubs wrote: post #265

One thing I noticed / learned about when we had our child is that we are all social creatures. We yearn to be with others like ourselves and to fit in. It's an incredibly strong pull, and the attitude of "if they really were interested, they'd be interested" that is prominent here greatly underestimates how strong our desire to fit in is. In poor neighborhoods, few rise out of their situations to become scholars and…

> We yearn to be with others like ourselves and to fit in. The idea is that this is what "keeps people out". Surely, the flip side is true, and people are defined / made happy by the same notions. People in the west are so far up Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that we've stopped caring about the basics of life. Specifically, of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs#... we no longer choose a job th…

Not buying the argument, since according to Maslov, very few people become self-actualized. His own research was sparked by a very limited set of individuals that exhibited the qualities of being what he later described as 'self-actualized'. So it's hard to believe that enough people in tech are self-actualized for that to be a big differentiator. In other words, it just doesn't seem realistic that the current gender balance snowballed out of males being drawn to technology out of self-actualization.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#400

Post by j2kun » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 4:31 PM UTC

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #344

j2kun wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field. Ted is the new kid at school, and he wants to make friends. At recess he approaches a group of smiling, laughing boys to introduce himself. But as he nears the group they get quiet. Ted says hi and his name, and mentions he's new and wants to know if they play "tag" here. The boys reply, "we don't play tag, we p…

That's clearly bullying. The article describes things that I would have thought are really benign: Over and over, Dr. Cheryan and her colleagues have found that female students are more interested in enrolling in a computer class if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art…

My point is not that women might like different things, just as Ted still enjoyed playing Weasel Escape, but that because of the T-shirts and all that they feel unwelcome. It's like the inside jokes making Ted feel left out. Sure they could explain the jokes and culture, and sure, there are probably lots of nice people in software willing to explain the culture, but it's tiring to feel like you're on the outside culturally even if the actual job (coding) is unrelated to the extraneous culture.