The Unemployable Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#381

Post by fweespeech » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 8:06 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #379

fweespeech wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. I've had about 40-50% of places reject me due to a lack of degree. A couple even sent me hopeful…

[deleted]

> I have a degree but it's from a for-profit trade art school

Tbh, my first jobs were in places that was almost entirely made up of people from those sorts of places and paid below market.

But like I've said elsewhere, I only brought it up 'cause the original parent I replied to claims there is no need to worry about the degree essentially.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#382

Post by s73v3r » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 8:17 PM UTC

edw519 wrote: post #20

Here's the dirty little secret about "employability" you hardly ever read about in places like HN: It's not about you. It's about your user and what they accomplish with the tools you build for them. It doesn't matter who you are, what you know, what education you have, where you've worked before, what turns you on, or what you think is cool. It only matters what you can do for others. It's really that fucking simple…

No, this is feeding into that "meritocracy" myth again. You're assuming that everyone is perfectly rational, and only looks at code, when in reality this is far from the case. In reality, the interviewer looks at you as a person, and has their own biases.

Some people are perfectly capable of doing the work, and are passed up for completely irrational reasons. Empathy, try it, please.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#383

Post by s73v3r » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 8:19 PM UTC

keyboardwarrior wrote: post #50

jacquesm wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have never lacked work. And I'm confident I never will with this attitude. I believe you. But that's also because you started this path in life a long time ago. If you're 40+, you've never done freelance/contract work and you need to start finding customers or new employment in a hurry then it's going to be a hungry winter.

Who says anything about freelance work. People think experience = programming + being paid. experience = programming if you can show a active github profile with clean code that shows you are pro-active or a expert in stack or domain, why would "they" not atleast contact you back. on the other side, if you have just been coding closed source, brain farts and clones that have no innovation or any overlapping area in w…

"if you can show a active github profile with clean code that shows you are pro-active or a expert in stack or domain, why would "they" not atleast contact you back."

Because you're older, or a minority, or female...

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#384

Post by s73v3r » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 8:24 PM UTC

segmondy wrote: post #149

I do a lot of interviews, and I interview plenty of programmers who have 10+ years experience or so they say. Knowledge of Java, C#, C++, Python, etc in their resume. Most cannot tell the difference between private and protected. Most have no idea what an abstract class is or a static variable. Let's not even talk about an interface. The vast majority have no idea what transactions are. These are stupid basic things.…

Well, one thing you have to ask yourself is, if the majority of people you're getting are crap, why don't the people you want apply at your company?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#385

Post by s73v3r » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 8:26 PM UTC

jpgvm wrote: post #8

websitescenes wrote: post #5

I am self taught with no degree and honestly, I get at least an interview with about 70% of the places I apply to. I don't put my education on resumes and nobody EVER asks. I am applying to mostly startups though..

I do think startups are the key. Startups generally don't have the money for silly hiring processes so they actually take the time to talk to people that apply for positions. That and the money they save on stupid HR process goes to my salary so that is great too.

Yeah, but the guy in this story is in his 40s. While a startup might not care about education, most of them definitely care about age.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#386

Post by pmelendez » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 8:27 PM UTC

LyndsySimon wrote: post #372

vonmoltke wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. What is baffling is this Valley-centric, web and mobile development-centric line being repeated c…

I completely disagree. I was working at FedEx as a programmer in 2012, and decided to make a move due to some internal changes. I made that decisions about two months before PyCon - at PyCon, I had two interviews, one of which landed me a great job at a significant pay increase. During those two months, I had phone interviews with two other companies, one of which I bowed out of the process because as I learned more…

You are still in the states aren't you? The story is very different outside of NorthAmerica.

In several countries in Europe and in LatinAmerica, landing in a well-enough job can be a matter of several months depending of the skill-set.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#387

Post by wishiknew » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 8:29 PM UTC

DaveWalk wrote: post #164

potatolicious wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welllllll... Yes and no. Yes, companies are generally desperate for programmers right now, and companies definitely want you to succeed in your interviews. Interviewers on the other hand can be a fickle bunch. I have met many (in fact, maybe even most ) who seem to treat it as some kind of hazing or initiation and act as if the candidate is an opponent to be outsmarted. It doesn't help that in literally none of the c…

I'd say it goes deeper than this: there's a greater emphasis today on the candidate being productive from day one. I don't know what is causing it (too much exposure to efficient software?), but in many industries hiring managers would rather keep looking for an absolute perfect candidate while leaving behind several that have the skills but need the training. I have heard the stories about managers spending 100 extr…

Glad to know I'm not alone there. I had an interview with this company where I was told technical skills weren't the most important, personality was. Luckily for me, they really liked me. Ten days later, I go to a second interview where they ask me pretty advanced technical questions. I don't panic and I end up doing extremely well. So at this point they've told me my personality was good for the position, and also saw I happened to be a solid programmer. The day after that second interview, they call me:

- hey, we're not going to give you that position because you didn't learn the [completely minor] framework by yourself since the last interview. - yeah, I have a job. Also, you didn't ask me to? - we do that on purpose to see if you're independent enough. - OK, I definitely think I am, what should I do? - I can't help you there, spend a week on this, come up with something and we'll see how we like it. - a week?! Also, don't you have a client request example or anything? - nope.

Eventually they decided that even if I were to do that, the disappointment on their side had been too huge… The funniest in this is that 'agile' is part of their corporate identity, the word's everywhere on their website, they even criticized the way I'm working with my current employer because he's not 'agile' enough (which is true, but I have no power over this). But then they want to hire somebody and not even have to give him a few pointers, because that's too vulgar for them? What the fuck is this?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#388

Post by brightball » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 8:41 PM UTC

s73v3r wrote: post #376

brightball wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you lose 5 people to the same place that's usually from insider recruiting. A lot of companies use No Raid clauses in both employee and client contracts specifically to prevent that type of thing. If you want to go work somewhere else, that is totally up to you but I'm more than allowed to have a policy stating that you're not allowed to recruit away my entire staff because that destabilizes the entire business,…

I'm guessing there was a reason they all up and left. And quite frankly, it's not my fault that you have a bunch of people who want to leave. The stability of your business is not my problem.

I'm fully aware that this isn't a popular answer, but it is reality.

This is anecdotal, but I've had an employee leave when she was paid 3 times what I made and given almost full autonomy. She hired away all of the staff at a branch office except a woman dying of cancer and another who was about to move out of state, then took the entire set of clients with her. This was an actual non-compete situation that nearly cost 13 other people their jobs and nearly bankrupted us 6 times over the next 2 years. We took on more debt while trying not to go under to avoid having to fire people who didn't deserve to lose their jobs over a crappy situation.

There are some people who will be unhappy regardless of what you do for them. In that particular situation, I cannot imagine anything else that we could have done for her. Some people are just self-centered and oblivious to the reality that their actions have consequences.

Yes, you better believe the stability of the business isn't your problem but it is mine and No Raid clauses exist primarily to prevent the actions of a few people from affecting the lively hoods of everybody else who works for the company.

If a bunch of people are unhappy and want to leave, then they are welcome to seek out other opportunities. Nobody's holding them hostage. What we are doing is making sure that before they start working at our company, they understand that if they aren't happy they are free to go work somewhere else but they are not free to actively jeopardize everybody else. If that is a problem, they don't have to come work here.

Pretty simple. You are put off by not being able to recruit away my staff...don't work here. Nobody's holding a gun to your head.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#389

Post by gavia1 » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 8:42 PM UTC

s73v3r wrote: post #370

georgerobinson wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After a few months I realized I was unemployable and set out to change it. First, as 20 something I can't imagine how hard it must be to wake up with the realization that you no longer have a job. Second, I think you deserve some real credit for 1. identifying that you were unemployable and 2. fixing it. However, the real trick is identifying when you're unemployable (or even starting to get close to it) before you…

"I want to stop you right there. I think your objective from here out is to make sure you never find yourself unemployable again - rather than waiting and/or hoping it doesn't happen." I think that's kinda like saying, "I want to stop you right there. Instead of buying auto insurance, your objective should be to not get into a car accident again." It's a nice goal, but you're gonna need a backup plan for if something…

I see your point, and point taken!

I should rephrase my original sentence. When I said what I said I didn't mean that fringedgentian could guarantee he/she would never be unemployed - but that these steps would minimize his/her risk from finding themselves back in unemployment.

To continue your analogy, you cannot guarantee that someone will never have an accident, but you can recommend precautions to minimize their risk. It is these precautions that I was trying to hint at in my prior post.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#390

Post by tracker1 » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 8:48 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #168

mkozlows wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have friends who are devs and hiring managers (several of whom have no degrees, even) in many cities -- Detroit, Columbus, Portland, Chicago, SF -- and the same thing is true in all those places. If you live in a small town, I can believe that the opportunities are limited, but in basically any metro area of any size, it's a developers' market.

Well, I live in Dallas. I have been fishing in Dallas and Austin over the past several months and can't get any interviews. I would like to know where all these "desperate" companies are and what domains they are in.

If you're relatively competent and current in .Net (C#) or Java, you should be employable in the southwest (Dallas, Houston, Phoenix etc)... There's a lot of business programming in those cities (I'm in Phoenix)... it isn't exciting, or front end centered for the most part, but tends to be consistent (except the year following 9/11 was pretty harsh).

I don't know your background, but would suggest going with a modern Java framework, or ASP.Net MVC and build something... go through the latest Apress or O'Reily book on the subject in question... At the same time start going to user group meetings locally. This will tend to get you at least in the door as far as interviews go... from there you're on your own.

Yes, some places you won't get past H.R. without a degree, but I've been at this for a couple decades now, and as long as you get current or keep up, you should be employable.