A Difficult Situation • Hacker News Board

Re: A Difficult Situation

#381

Post by obstacle1 » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 1:56 AM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #327

powertower wrote: post #98

They need to update that statement with the fact that the joke was not about her, nor directed at her. Their statement leaves that very important part out, making the reader think otherwise - that she was the victim. At the same time (or around that time) this was happening, here is a conversation she was having - http://i.imgur.com/nRC5J7f.png Another gem from years ago - http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c I'd imagine she was…

This whole situation makes me deeply uncomfortable. First, because it demonstrates the extent to which a company can be brought to its knees by a group of hostile people organized online. Second because hundreds and hundreds of men here and elsewhere seem quite happy to align themselves with an overtly sexist, violently threatening campaign against an individual whose views they disagree with. I am not in a position…

>Second because hundreds and hundreds of men here and elsewhere seem quite happy to align themselves with an overtly sexist, violently threatening campaign against an individual whose views they disagree with.

Erm, I don't know that I see that. I presume you mean the anonymous-handle twitter/facebook vitriol? Yeah, that's just what internet forum kids do. Every time a trainwreck happens. And disagreeing with Adria doesn't automatically place one in the same camp as them, or "align" one with them.

I, for one, think Adria absolutely deserved to be fired. I think I'm qualified to say that, because logic. I think we are all qualified to judge that one. I also think that the death/rape/violence threats she received were utterly reprehensible. One can be in both camps.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#382

Post by powertower » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 1:56 AM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #327

powertower wrote: post #98

They need to update that statement with the fact that the joke was not about her, nor directed at her. Their statement leaves that very important part out, making the reader think otherwise - that she was the victim. At the same time (or around that time) this was happening, here is a conversation she was having - http://i.imgur.com/nRC5J7f.png Another gem from years ago - http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c I'd imagine she was…

This whole situation makes me deeply uncomfortable. First, because it demonstrates the extent to which a company can be brought to its knees by a group of hostile people organized online. Second because hundreds and hundreds of men here and elsewhere seem quite happy to align themselves with an overtly sexist, violently threatening campaign against an individual whose views they disagree with. I am not in a position…

> Why are so many really so angry? I promise it has nothing to do with this woman.

One guy (while looking at the presentation), turned his head to his buddy, and said - look at the size of that dongle, would you fork it?

Do you know what that is? It's Funny (and crude). And if you don't find it to be so, that's just too bad. You're not owed anything. You (nor anyone else) have been violated.

We are simply getting fed up that there are people so PC, so fragile, so venomous, so victimhood seeking, that they would attempt to drop a bomb on us over nothing.

> And guess what, her sentiment about racism, whether I agree with it or not, is shared by many scholars of American race relations who are decidedly more informed on the subject.

Redefining established words to fit your narrative (as someone said on here) is a crime against understanding and is not acceptable.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#383

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 1:59 AM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #327

powertower wrote: post #98

They need to update that statement with the fact that the joke was not about her, nor directed at her. Their statement leaves that very important part out, making the reader think otherwise - that she was the victim. At the same time (or around that time) this was happening, here is a conversation she was having - http://i.imgur.com/nRC5J7f.png Another gem from years ago - http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c I'd imagine she was…

This whole situation makes me deeply uncomfortable. First, because it demonstrates the extent to which a company can be brought to its knees by a group of hostile people organized online. Second because hundreds and hundreds of men here and elsewhere seem quite happy to align themselves with an overtly sexist, violently threatening campaign against an individual whose views they disagree with. I am not in a position…

[deleted]

Re: A Difficult Situation

#384

Post by tanglisha » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:01 AM UTC

fingerprinter wrote: post #93

Who didn't see this coming? And when she pulled SendGrid, her employer, publicly into the fray via her twitter feed, who didn't know it was simply a matter of time? I mean, what else could SendGrid possibly do? She basically forced them to fire her. Her value to the company is being a public face to developers . She very publicly destroyed that value. Further, she pulled SendGrid in with her tweet about them "support…

At any point before the firing, she had the power to put a halt to a lot of this. She could have gone on Twitter and her blog and posted, "I'm so sorry this has happened. The person in question has apologized. I would like to request that Play Haven rehire him, and institute a policy to avoid incidents like this in the future."

Everything so far has been about punishment/vindictiveness. Nobody is interested in trying to address the problem, move forward, and make the world a better place. I don't see how the outcome could have been worse. Everyone handled this badly except PyCon itself, yet PyCon is who will be remembered as the problem.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#385

Post by ScottBurson » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:01 AM UTC

base698 wrote: post #277

seivan wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, just two guys making forking jokes (get it?). Even Github sells merch with the words "Fork you". Zealous oversensitive jaded person like her, taking her time to get the phone out, take a picture, possible geo-tagged of two guys who might not want to be on her Twitter. She has no right to do that. Especially when there was no communication between them. You don't like their jokes, tell them or move away. Look…

What happened was bad taste to be sure, but it isn't sexism. If they made a comment asking why all the women in the audience aren't bringing them beer that would be sexist. Using sexual language is not by itself sufficient for sexism. It is bad taste and an argument could be made it should be rooted out in a professional environment, but it shouldn't be confused with actual sexism. Sexism: Belief one of the sexes can…

That's a tempting argument, but I agree with pukka_my. Sexual jokes or innuendo make some people, especially women, uncomfortable. Among friends, in private, you might know that everyone present is fine with that kind of banter. In a public place, you can't know that. So giving yourself permission to make such cracks anyway is at best insensitive and, if repeated, betrays an attitude that says "because I'm a man and you're a woman, I don't have to care how you feel about this". That's sexist.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#386

Post by 14113 » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:02 AM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #338

14113 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Replying here from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5420421 as comment limit reached) As the limit's been reached, and I'm not sure of the etiquette on hacker news for longer comments, I'll finish up my end of the discussion here. I think this is a classic internet situation where everybody's in the wrong, especially the two companies. To sum up my position: -The developers arguably shouldn't have made the jokes…

Thanks for the civilized discussion as well! I agree that the immediate firings on both sides come off the worst. Announcing some miscellaneous investigation/discipline/etc. is one thing, but going straight to firing comes off, to me anyway, as more impulsive (and worrisome) than reassuring and decisive. I also agree that Twitter mobs are a bit worrisome. I'm perhaps mostly counter-worried about the principle of post…

Thanks for the link tip! I'm rather new here unfortunately, so I don't quite know how everything works unfortunately...

I think this whole debarcle should be noted down in a book entitled "how not to do things". Everything, from the developers conduct, to Adria's reaction, to the internet's counter-reaction to the companies reactions just multiplied the problems further. Essentially the lesson I'm taking away from this is that it's incredibly necessary to think twice or three times before doing anything - especially in this internet connected age.

Anyway - I'm still interested in how you got into AI, but I'll drop you an email to ask to keep the post thread down. I completely understand - it's probably trivial to find out who I am from my HN profile - but it's still better than it being explicit.

Thanks!

Re: A Difficult Situation

#387

Post by danielweber » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:03 AM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #327

powertower wrote: post #98

They need to update that statement with the fact that the joke was not about her, nor directed at her. Their statement leaves that very important part out, making the reader think otherwise - that she was the victim. At the same time (or around that time) this was happening, here is a conversation she was having - http://i.imgur.com/nRC5J7f.png Another gem from years ago - http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c I'd imagine she was…

This whole situation makes me deeply uncomfortable. First, because it demonstrates the extent to which a company can be brought to its knees by a group of hostile people organized online. Second because hundreds and hundreds of men here and elsewhere seem quite happy to align themselves with an overtly sexist, violently threatening campaign against an individual whose views they disagree with. I am not in a position…

First, because it demonstrates the extent to which a company can be brought to its knees by a group of hostile people organized online

I agree. This is frightening. Any concept of a DDOS being a "digital sit-in" are dumb. PlayHaven may also have been trying to avoid the mob, too.

Second because hundreds and hundreds of men here and elsewhere seem quite happy to align themselves with an overtly sexist, violently threatening campaign against an individual whose views they disagree with.

What do you mean by "align themselves"? Those are extremely vague words.

Do you mean "approve of"? Or do you mean "takes the same side as"?

Anyone who approves of the DDOS is a moron. Anyone who approves of death threats is a sociopath. The people who issued threats should be subject to criminal prosecution.

However, people can find themselves legitimately on the same side of an issue as a bunch of assholes. No one should be forced out of a position by the fact that disgusting people also have that opinion.[1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

Re: A Difficult Situation

#388

Post by rdtsc » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:08 AM UTC

rscale wrote: post #278

powertower wrote: post #98

They need to update that statement with the fact that the joke was not about her, nor directed at her. Their statement leaves that very important part out, making the reader think otherwise - that she was the victim. At the same time (or around that time) this was happening, here is a conversation she was having - http://i.imgur.com/nRC5J7f.png Another gem from years ago - http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c I'd imagine she was…

Let's remember: she never asked for him to get fired. And I don't think that was a reasonably foreseeable outcome of her comments. The fact that he was fired leads me to two probable conclusions: 1) that his management was terrible and he'll end up someplace better; or 2) that he was about to be fired anyway. If his management was terrible, it's not a sad story for him in the long-term. If they were going to fire him…

Let's also not forget her job position -- she lives and breathes Twitter. 1000s of followers. To claim ignorance on her part about the outcome is a little disingenuous.

Now the ultimate outcome is that she also got fired, here is where she miscalculated her risk. She didn't immediately react, she pondered her actions and weighed her risk according to her blog. I think she saw a golden opportunity and took, but got too greedy. Ultimately it was a classic sociopath move.

> 2) that he was about to be fired anyway.

That is why I want to hear more from PlayHeaven. Here is my question, why the heck send a shitty employee to PyCon. Usually top developers get to go, to learn and bring back new technology. If he was out of the door why spend money him. So I discard 2) and just assume 1) until further information (if any) comes out.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#389

Post by WalterSear » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:09 AM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #196

WalterSear wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean this tweet from the conference: https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 Or the other one with the photo? :) As a developer, considering this, and the other damning stuff in her twitter stream, and her alleged previous track record at other conferences, I would not feel comfortable interacting with her. So, whatever my reasoning, she's no longer going to be able to reach me, so she's ki…

The one about the photo. I hadn't seen the tweet you linked. Can you explain why you're not comfortable interacting with her?

The fear of arbitrary public shaming over the equivalent of a misheard comment and failed joke.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#390

Post by fakeer » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:09 AM UTC

Oh dear God. People are fired summarily in this manner over a joke two buddies/strangers were sharing.

If the trend continues males shall start whispering when a female comes near at a conference and maybe just ignore them or move to another place, because you never know what shall be perceived as against.

I guess the the ones who are at real risk here are the two genders. Another blow to widen the gap.

"I will be at pycon 2014, I will joke and socialize with everyone but I will also be mindful of my audience, accidental or otherwise." - [1]

Just because of one irresponsible and casual remark by a female marketer killing livelihoods of two male engineers.

What I find specially chilling and mean is - "she smiled while she snapped the pic and sealed my fate."[1]

And people being convicted without a trial is fine for Internet and troll but two companies firing away like "you are no longer welcome at this bar because you shouted at another guy outside our bar". So, taking sides and standing for someone needs just one thing - just being born in the same gender? That's it?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681]