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Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

reuters.com

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Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#381

Post by Computer0 »

gershy wrote: post #370
hardbass wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes for example if a religious extremist British faction were trying to colonize Native American america today, I'd gladly support funding and arming them against the invaders. Whats centuries past is past, what is happening today is important.

This positions israel as the invader, but pro-israelis (like myself) will argue that historically israeli jews+arabs are the indigenous population, and have been the target of invasion, and israeli territorial expansion has been through arguably defensive wars. In your example I immediately think "you'd never support a native movement that willfully and indiscriminately murdered a bunch of british citizens". And to m…

The issue isn't the historical Jews living there (now Palestinian) the issues are the European Jews moving there claiming that they have some sort of connection to the land over say Poland.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#382

Post by gershy »

hardbass wrote: post #379
gershy wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idf doesn't fight near civilian infrastructure - it deploys to the borders. Military bases in israel are far from civilian infrastructure. I think you're probably just wrong here.

That's another fun one. Israel doesn't seem to mind launching missiles at non-serving non-military officers who are living in neutral countries like Qatar, and killing unrelated Qatari civilians in the process. So I would say by the same precedent, anyone has served or is serving in the IDF, which obviously would live in the cities as most of the population is a valid target.

I misunderstood your point earlier. Not that international law is necessarily always a valid philosophy we should accept, but international law does only consider people to be combatants if they're actively serving. Regardless of what international law says, I would argue that ethically, retired/non-serving army members should not be considered combatants or fair wartime targets (I think I mostly feel this way on the basis that targeting them causes civilian strife - e.g. the company they work for, family/community they support etc. is harmed - with zero war value). And I would say reservists are a more complicated case.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#383

Post by hardbass »

gershy wrote: post #382
hardbass wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's another fun one. Israel doesn't seem to mind launching missiles at non-serving non-military officers who are living in neutral countries like Qatar, and killing unrelated Qatari civilians in the process. So I would say by the same precedent, anyone has served or is serving in the IDF, which obviously would live in the cities as most of the population is a valid target.

I misunderstood your point earlier. Not that international law is necessarily always a valid philosophy we should accept, but international law does only consider people to be combatants if they're actively serving. Regardless of what international law says, I would argue that ethically, retired/non-serving army members should not be considered combatants or fair wartime targets (I think I mostly feel this way on the…

I care more about equality than international law. If Israel uses a tactic or policy, then its valid and just for those fighting Israel to not tie their hands behind their backs and avoid the same tactic.

>Khalil al-Hayya, a reported target of this air strike, was previously targeted by a 2007 assassination attempt, which killed at least seven of his family members.[33][34][35] His home in Gaza was struck by an airstrike in the 2014 Gaza War.

Israel hardly has difficulties with killing innocent family members. So "civilian strife" is irrelevant in my view, as symmetrically Palestine, Lebanon, Iran, etc are permitted to do the same against Israel. The people targeted in the Qatar strike were all political office holders not soldiers. So for instance it is valid for these countries to bomb the home or place of stay of Ben Gvir or Benjamin Netenyahu and kill them and their family members for the sake of just and fair combat.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#385

Post by NomDePlum »

Zvez wrote: post #314
hashstring wrote: post #191

> Between October 7, 2023 and October 7, 2025, at least 20,179 children were killed, around 30% of the overall death toll. > A rebuttal shared by Israel's mission in Geneva said Israel "consistently strives to minimize harm to children even in situations of conflict". Well, it is certainly no question that Israel is killing children en masse. Israeli officials are saying “but we are trying to minimize”. Well, these a…

> Yes, horrible, but at what point does the consensus become that October 7 starts to look like a small event in light of the death toll on the other side At the point when other side (free palestine and alike) start acknowledging it. Two wrongs don't make something right. Start with teaching Palestine supporters that hamas is not the answer. And maybe, maybe after that people start seeing Palestine people as victims…

[dead]

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#386

Post by goldfishgold »

jameshilliard wrote: post #310
throw310822 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Jewish majority is not an issue. The issue is that Israel is not "the state of the Israelis", it's the Jewish state. You can become an Israeli, you cannot become part of the ethno-religious group that the state is meant to represent. Not you and not any of your descendants, ever. > The issue is that if the demographics were flipped it would be unlikely to work This is a classic of Israeli propaganda: justifying a…

> you cannot become part of the ethno-religious group that the state is meant to represent. Not you and not any of your descendants, ever. AFAIU Israel does accept conversions to Judaism so that's not actually accurate. > This is a classic of Israeli propaganda: justifying an actual wrong (discrimination, apartheid, occupation, murder, you name it) with the allegation that a worse wrong would be committed by the othe…

Palestinians in Israel are not permitted to convert to Judaism, so no there is no path to assimilate and join the majority. https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/palestinian-requ...

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#387

Post by gershy »

hardbass wrote: post #383
gershy wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I misunderstood your point earlier. Not that international law is necessarily always a valid philosophy we should accept, but international law does only consider people to be combatants if they're actively serving. Regardless of what international law says, I would argue that ethically, retired/non-serving army members should not be considered combatants or fair wartime targets (I think I mostly feel this way on the…

I care more about equality than international law. If Israel uses a tactic or policy, then its valid and just for those fighting Israel to not tie their hands behind their backs and avoid the same tactic. >Khalil al-Hayya, a reported target of this air strike, was previously targeted by a 2007 assassination attempt, which killed at least seven of his family members.[33][34][35] His home in Gaza was struck by an airst…

Saying "I accept X using any tactic against Y that Y used against X" is meaningless in an ongoing tit-for-tat conflict unless you pick an arbitrary historical starting point. You may naturally lean towards picking an anti-israel starting point, but that isn't the only option.

Strikes against hamas leadership have war value, and I personally find proportional collateral damage justifiable.

Netanyahu is roughly (not legally but comparable) a commander in chief and targetting him likewise has war value and is justifiable. I'm not sure of ben gvir's role in military matters, but that's what I would base my answer on.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#388

Post by gershy »

Computer0 wrote: post #381
gershy wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This positions israel as the invader, but pro-israelis (like myself) will argue that historically israeli jews+arabs are the indigenous population, and have been the target of invasion, and israeli territorial expansion has been through arguably defensive wars. In your example I immediately think "you'd never support a native movement that willfully and indiscriminately murdered a bunch of british citizens". And to m…

The issue isn't the historical Jews living there (now Palestinian) the issues are the European Jews moving there claiming that they have some sort of connection to the land over say Poland.

Those european jews descend from judea (levant) - genetic tests confirm this. It's a rare instance of a displaced population returning home after centuries.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#389

Post by gershy »

hardbass wrote: post #378
gershy wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This positions israel as the invader, but pro-israelis (like myself) will argue that historically israeli jews+arabs are the indigenous population, and have been the target of invasion, and israeli territorial expansion has been through arguably defensive wars. In your example I immediately think "you'd never support a native movement that willfully and indiscriminately murdered a bunch of british citizens". And to m…

I don't mind the jews already living in the region. If European whites had immigrated peacefully and with consent of those already living then none of these problems would exist or would be much smaller. But no, we have Europeans forcibly carving out a chunk of that land and today we have classic "Levatine tribes" like the...Milejkowskis lording over that patch and killing the actual peoples who lived for centuries b…

(see above)

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#390

Post by hardbass »

gershy wrote: post #387
hardbass wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I care more about equality than international law. If Israel uses a tactic or policy, then its valid and just for those fighting Israel to not tie their hands behind their backs and avoid the same tactic. >Khalil al-Hayya, a reported target of this air strike, was previously targeted by a 2007 assassination attempt, which killed at least seven of his family members.[33][34][35] His home in Gaza was struck by an airst…

Saying "I accept X using any tactic against Y that Y used against X" is meaningless in an ongoing tit-for-tat conflict unless you pick an arbitrary historical starting point. You may naturally lean towards picking an anti-israel starting point, but that isn't the only option. Strikes against hamas leadership have war value, and I personally find proportional collateral damage justifiable. Netanyahu is roughly (not le…

How does historical starting point matter? If Y started using traditionally inadmissible tactics then it is pure foolishness for X to constrain himself. Clearly Israel saw some benefit in killing the innocent family members of this non-military personnel. And then to lob a missile at him in a civilian building in an unrelated country that is in no conflict with Israel, killing further innocents. Ben Gvir is an equivalent example in Israel, so these countries are justified in killing Gvir's family. These countries are wholly justified in attacking Israel's sites whether military or civilian for Israel struck a civilian site in a neutral country. Its very simple, military tactics themselves depend on the combatants feeling morale, it would be quite unjust and a drain on morale for them to be unable to respond in kind to inadmissible actions.
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