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Job application asked for my SAT scores

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Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#381

Post by mangodrunk »

WalterBright wrote: post #146
delichon wrote: post #28

Last month 2,400 University of California faculty asked for admissions to resume using the SAT "to ensure foundational fluency." Of course many employers want to ensure that too, especially when college degrees don't anymore. The widening abilities gap followed the 2020 elimination of the SAT/ACT, a temporary measure that has now become a permanent vulnerability. This outcome was explicitly predicted by the Academic…

I always enjoy the advocates who claim that students have mastered their subjects, but "don't test well". Would you want a pilot on your flight who flunked flying school exams, but somehow "really knew how to fly!"?

I agree with you. The real world is stressful or less than ideal for many reasons and we have to apply our knowledge within that context.

In addition to that, this claim is like the dragon in my garage thought experiment. It an unfalsifiable claim that they have “knowledge” but can’t demonstrate it.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#382

Post by solid_fuel »

rayiner wrote: post #136
buildsjets wrote: post #40

You cannot use the SAT as a metric to compare different cohorts. SAT scoring has been revised many times over the years. When I took it the highest possible score was 1600. From 2004 through 2016 the highest score was 2400. Now it is back to 1600 again. Plus, both the content and the format of the exam has changed many times over the years. At times, there was no essay requirement, at times the essay was required, an…

Yeah they’re much easier now.

Got a source for that, bud?

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#384

Post by apparent »

Morromist wrote: post #380
apparent wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are fee waivers for poor kids, and free test prep thanks to Khan Academy. These may not have existed decades ago, but they exist now.

Fee waivers are great. A lot of poor parents are too busy / don't have their shit together enough to learn about them & use them. A lot of poor parents won't even have their kids take the tests at all even if they are free, especially if it means taking an entire day to drive them to the test facility. They might not even know what an SAT test is.

Hm that's true, but the alternative would also be flawed, and possibly worse. If you could only take the SAT once and you were stuck with that score, then people would complain that rich kids could take all sorts of prep courses to get ready and to figure out what they needed to work on before taking the test, whereas poor kids would be figuring this all out on test day. There is no ideal way to do this, and the current system may be better than anything else.

Also, in a decent number of states, it's mandatory for all HS students to take (and I believe free to students as a result).

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#385

Post by WalterBright »

FatherOfCurses wrote: post #364
WalterBright wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always enjoy the advocates who claim that students have mastered their subjects, but "don't test well". Would you want a pilot on your flight who flunked flying school exams, but somehow "really knew how to fly!"?

It's not a claim, there is psychological data supporting the negative impact stress can have on recall and that for some students a test is not the best way to identify their retained knowledge. Your single example identifies a situation where we would want someone resilient to stress to pass the testing process. However if you are evaluating someone's ability to identify characters in Shakespeare who are most closel…

I've been around tests all my life. I don't know anyone who bombed the test but mastered the material. And the ones who aced the tests - turns out that they actually had mastered the material.

As for people who cannot perform under the stress of a test, how are they going to perform otherwise? Anyhow, the solution to test anxiety is to keep taking tests - the anxiety will recede.

For example, the first time I tried public speaking I was paralyzed. But I kept trying it, and the anxiety went away, and now I do a fair amount of public speaking and enjoy it very much.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#386

Post by WalterBright »

Newlaptop wrote: post #274
hammock wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't buy the notion that tests do not test relevant skills. In my long career I've noticed a strong correlation between SAT scores and academic performance as well as job performance. SAT tests intelligence (aptitude), not skills. Which is why it correlates with job performance, where intelligence can (over some time) matter as much or more than a starting point of relevant skills.

I just checked, and the SAT math section covers algebra, trigonometry and statistics. Look at this list: Quadratic equations and functions (vertex form, roots, discriminant) Polynomial operations and factoring Exponential functions and growth/decay Radical and rational expressions Function notation, composite and inverse functions Nonlinear graphs and their transformations A genius student who had never been taught t…

> Test-prep courses average increasing SAT scores by about 200 points.

Perhaps because they finally bothered to learn the material. I am skeptical that "strategy" makes much of any difference.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#387

Post by WalterBright »

marcuskane2 wrote: post #354
somenameforme wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somebody who goes to take a test on something they know that they know nothing about could be called many things, but genius is not one, even moreso when they're paying for the privilege of taking that test. What is on the SAT is no secret, so people are free to prepare as little or as much as they might like. If somebody can't be assed to prepare for such a critical test, then they're probably going to be the sort o…

Or they're a student who has to work a part-time job after school. Or they have a long commute. Or they have hours of practice for a competitive sport or extracurricular. Or they have to take care of their siblings, grandparent or sick parent. Or they were told by their parents and teachers that because they're smart and do well in school that they don't need to worry about studying. Or they know their parents can't…

There's plenty of time during school hours to study up on the math. My high school was deficient in math, everyone knew that, and I took math classes at the local community college to make up for it.

I never studied for tests in school, not for the SATs, either. I tried that in college, that did not work. The stress of the tests was pretty bad. I realized I had to study hard, and I did, and it was effective at reducing test anxiety.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#388

Post by WalterBright »

somenameforme wrote: post #378
marcuskane2 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they're a student who has to work a part-time job after school. Or they have a long commute. Or they have hours of practice for a competitive sport or extracurricular. Or they have to take care of their siblings, grandparent or sick parent. Or they were told by their parents and teachers that because they're smart and do well in school that they don't need to worry about studying. Or they know their parents can't…

We're talking about the SAT, not the gaokao [1]. It's a relatively short test that you can take it whenever you want, you can even retake it if you want, however many times you want. There's minimal memorization required and it's mostly testing basic aptitude. But the overwhelming majority of people are of average aptitude, so the overwhelming majority of people will do "poorly" on the SAT when comparing themselves t…

I know a person who has a pretty modest ability, shall we say. But he still managed to become a multimillionaire as a young man.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#389

Post by WalterBright »

hammock wrote: post #369
Newlaptop wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just checked, and the SAT math section covers algebra, trigonometry and statistics. Look at this list: Quadratic equations and functions (vertex form, roots, discriminant) Polynomial operations and factoring Exponential functions and growth/decay Radical and rational expressions Function notation, composite and inverse functions Nonlinear graphs and their transformations A genius student who had never been taught t…

> A genius student who had never been taught those subjects wouldn't even know what the symbols meant. This is pedantic. Take it to the logical next step. Words and letters are symbols too. How would someone who can’t read do on the SAT? > A mediocre student who had studied SAT-style questions for weeks leading up to the test would likely outperform a high IQ student who last solved those types of problems over a yea…

Hal Finney was famous at Caltech for skipping class, flipping through the textbook a couple hours before finals, and acing them.

But he was one in a million. I always felt like a moron around him. But Hal was also charismatic and everyone liked him, including myself.

I suspect Hal was a "skin job" alien.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#390

Post by Izkata »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #320
buildsjets wrote: post #40

You cannot use the SAT as a metric to compare different cohorts. SAT scoring has been revised many times over the years. When I took it the highest possible score was 1600. From 2004 through 2016 the highest score was 2400. Now it is back to 1600 again. Plus, both the content and the format of the exam has changed many times over the years. At times, there was no essay requirement, at times the essay was required, an…

> When I took it the highest possible score was 1600. From 2004 through 2016 the highest score was 2400. Now it is back to 1600 again. that's because the 2400 score included an 800 point writing component; the math and reading components remained scored at 800 points (and still do now)

Even during that time the writing component was optional. I took it twice, once with and once without.
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