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What if remote working, not AI, is to blame for weak junior hiring?

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Re: What if remote working, not AI, is to blame for weak junior hiring?

#381

Post by meta_gunslinger »

foobarchu wrote: post #353
meta_gunslinger wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just silly. The fact that you disagree with an opinion does not mean that other people should not get the chance to be exposed to it. That's how echo-chambers form.

At the same time, the amount of disagreement an opinion gathers is an extremely important channel of information for determining whether you agree with someone's position. Silencing the disagreement with it gives an outsized benefit to harmful and malicious statements.

That's fine when a disagreement (or downvote) is just a signal on the post, but when it's used as a way to silence an opinion (e.g downvotes will hide it) that's even more harmful and malicious. Especially when the guideline is to downvote posts that are low-quality or don't conform to the rules, not posts you just merely disagree with or are against your belief system. Popularity should not be confused with truth.

Re: What if remote working, not AI, is to blame for weak junior hiring?

#382

Post by andix »

busterarm wrote: post #156
andix wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think only a few people manage to build such a network inside a company. But those are usually the successful ones, because they know much more than others.

It's not super hard. You just have to listen to when people are asking for things, try to help and read an org chart. 90% of the engineers I've worked with in bigger companies wouldn't know how to find someone in the company outside of their direct reporting structure. Honestly it's pathetic. The rest of the organization can't work like that and these are table stakes social skills IMO. I seriously think the "headpho…

> It's not super hard

For most people it's hard, especially for the stereotypical "IT nerds".

I think the best tip for people who have a hard time is: Watch who of your colleagues know "everyone" and spend as much time as possible with them. If they ask you to go for lunch together, always join. If you can work on a project with them, do it. They will casually introduce you to all the people over time, and might just tell you the newest company gossip.

Re: What if remote working, not AI, is to blame for weak junior hiring?

#383

Post by throwaway2037 »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #346
throwaway2037 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide some example financial/economic newspapers and magazines that do not give you "that feeling"?

Deutsche Welle and usually Reuters, sometimes AP News. To your point, it _is_ somewhat random

None of your examples are "financial/economic newspapers and magazines". Rather, they are general news sources that occaisionally report on financial/economic topics. I was being very specific in my OP. Also, "somewhat random" reads like pure tin-foil hat nonsense to me. It sounds like: "If they agree with me, it is good; else they are a rubbish news source." I see this much too often on HN where someone claims the vast majority of major news sources cannot be trusted and only they know which news sources (and specific articles) can be trusted.

Re: What if remote working, not AI, is to blame for weak junior hiring?

#384

Post by throwaway2037 »

blharr wrote: post #374
throwaway2037 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I compare pair programming in person vs. by video chat, there is no comparison. In person is always more effective. That said, if you have no choice (your pairing partner is not in the same office), then video chat is way better than 10 years ago, and is a reasonable alternative.

As someone who has poorer vision than average, pair programming in person as the observer is almost impossible. Id have to ask the driver constantly for clarification on what they typed or have them increase their text size to something that would be uncomfortable to them. That's just to say its not always more effective

You raise an interesting and fair point. I "raise you" (poker like) with this challenge: What if you are sitting next to each other with side by side PCs? Your PC can have gigantic "boomer-style" fonts (no hate on that; each year over 40 for me... I swear I need a bigger font!) and your (twenty-something whipper snapper!) teammate can have microscopic 8-point fonts. Do you think the communication will be better face-to-face or over video? I still stand by my original point: Human communication is always better face-to-face compared to video.

Re: What if remote working, not AI, is to blame for weak junior hiring?

#385

Post by ltbarcly3 »

netsharc wrote: post #36
ltbarcly3 wrote: post #24

In 2026 a Junior Engineer is just Claude Code with a bad UI, higher latency, and extra steps. Literally. I wouldn't even considering hiring a junior engineer at this point. The ROI was already barely breakeven for any but the top of the top junior engineers as they are likely to move on before they are meaningfully contributing. With AI in the mix the ROI for Junior Engineers is strongly negative for 2 reasons: 1. (o…

Can I add: 1a. If you train it enough, one day you'll be able to trust that it's going to be able to execute what you want correctly, and you don't have to meticulously go through each line to find any issues. to your list of arguments? Because just like a junior human, training Claude will make it a capable senior developer, right...? /S because this is the Internet.

You didn't read my comment. Literally addressed this point when I said "the Junior engineer isn't going to learn much if anything in the process"

Re: What if remote working, not AI, is to blame for weak junior hiring?

#386

Post by jjtheblunt »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #383
jjtheblunt wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deutsche Welle and usually Reuters, sometimes AP News. To your point, it _is_ somewhat random

None of your examples are "financial/economic newspapers and magazines". Rather, they are general news sources that occaisionally report on financial/economic topics. I was being very specific in my OP. Also, "somewhat random" reads like pure tin-foil hat nonsense to me. It sounds like: "If they agree with me, it is good; else they are a rubbish news source." I see this much too often on HN where someone claims the v…

agreed with your general point that I'm having to look across multiple different news sources, each _not_ specialized in financial/economic news, to attempt to reconstruct viewpoints not propagandized by whomever.

in my case I look across countries for their news versions, which seems useful. and, yes, "seems" is vague but that's at least an attempt.

Re: What if remote working, not AI, is to blame for weak junior hiring?

#387

Post by flextheruler »

grolingor wrote: post #323
bzhang255 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that kind of how society works? i.e. If a senior employee benefitted from having close mentorship and a strong social network when they were a junior, then they may wish to pay it forward by being present and mentoring juniors now that they're a senior.

Wishing to go to office and make friends is very different from forcing everyone to do so. Many of us remote senior workers have rich social lives and were able to upskill ourselves, without needing coworkers to substitute for a failing social experience.

Begrudging more senior employees for lacking sympathy for younger employees who feel left out by remote work is not the same as begrudging them for working remote. Regardless, I would say it's a fair hypothesis that the vast majority of senior employees now would have reacted negatively to working remotely out of college. My experience and my peers has been that it's a significant negative to working relationships or gaining a mentor which is crucial for younger people. I see no reason why this would not be a universal experience. Studies back this up even before remote work was a thing. One I recall of the top of the dome was that it was actually cheaper over a lifetime in many occupations to go out to eat for lunch with coworkers than packing a lunch because just going out to eat with work peers had an immensely positive impact on promotions and networking. If just going out to lunch does that you can easily extrapolate to what effect not even working in the same place physically has.

I cannot find the exact study that concluded this but here's a recent one making a similar case. I know this isn't the one I've recalled since I read it back in high school. This one speaks to the benefits to the employee and employer.

https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/8638-employees-eat-togethe...

Re: What if remote working, not AI, is to blame for weak junior hiring?

#388

Post by busterarm »

andix wrote: post #382
busterarm wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not super hard. You just have to listen to when people are asking for things, try to help and read an org chart. 90% of the engineers I've worked with in bigger companies wouldn't know how to find someone in the company outside of their direct reporting structure. Honestly it's pathetic. The rest of the organization can't work like that and these are table stakes social skills IMO. I seriously think the "headpho…

> It's not super hard For most people it's hard, especially for the stereotypical "IT nerds". I think the best tip for people who have a hard time is: Watch who of your colleagues know "everyone" and spend as much time as possible with them. If they ask you to go for lunch together, always join. If you can work on a project with them, do it. They will casually introduce you to all the people over time, and might just…

I'm closing out 3 decades+ around the "IT nerds" and if anything they spend _more_ time socializing than "normies". The difference is typically that their socializing tends to specialize around fandoms/activities instead of generalist/community things like civics, sports and family.

Not to be overly harsh but the problem is with seeing those who don't share their interests as people equally worthy of attention. IT nerds typically have trouble meeting people where they're at instead of the other way around. And most of the time it's because they've never made any effort to do so.

That's why I say it's not super hard.

It's also becoming more of a societal problem in general as younger people spend more and more time isolated and socializing in bubbles. I think it's a serious and growing problem that people don't have friendships outside of their immediate peer group age-wise.

My brother's kid is in her early 20s and her and most of her friends don't see people at 30+ as people. They don't value their opinions and it has all sorts of negative effects on their lives like they struggle to obtain/keep jobs, etc. That's not a blanket generalization though -- we have some team members in that age-range and they're great.

Re: What if remote working, not AI, is to blame for weak junior hiring?

#389

Post by grolingor »

flextheruler wrote: post #387
grolingor wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wishing to go to office and make friends is very different from forcing everyone to do so. Many of us remote senior workers have rich social lives and were able to upskill ourselves, without needing coworkers to substitute for a failing social experience.

Begrudging more senior employees for lacking sympathy for younger employees who feel left out by remote work is not the same as begrudging them for working remote. Regardless, I would say it's a fair hypothesis that the vast majority of senior employees now would have reacted negatively to working remotely out of college. My experience and my peers has been that it's a significant negative to working relationships or…

Your hypothesis that the vast majority of senior employees would have reacted negatively is a projection of your own isolated lifestyle. You yourself noted “I literally developed depression and anxiety from isolation” which is more reflective of your own social issues than it is a representative experience of a healthy lifestyle.

Relatedly the most successful engineers in my social network are those who have worked remote most or all of their careers. It’s not a coincidence that they have more fulfilling social lives and earn more money, when they are able to spend more time with their spouse/kids, learn skills on their own, and switch to higher paying jobs that are not location-bound.

Yes, eating together is great for forming social bonds. A great many of us senior engineers (in my opinion the actual vast silent majority) are able to form social bonds that improve productivity, without needing to go to an office daycare to make fake forced friends.

Re: What if remote working, not AI, is to blame for weak junior hiring?

#390

Post by wqaatwt »

skinfaxi wrote: post #262
wqaatwt wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or.. they might have enjoyed their time at the office and want the new generation to have that experience as well: D

A lot of people are of the mind of "well I had to do it so why shouldn't you?" Look at the discussions around student loan forgiveness for an example.

Because loan forgiveness makes no sense at all until the underlying system is fixed. It’s just absurd.

Cap fees and interest rates and the think about partial income based forgiveness.

The English system seems like a very reasonable compromise.

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