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Waymo in Portland

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Re: Waymo in Portland

#381

Post by xnx »

danaw wrote: post #291
ggreer wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2025, TriMet had 262 million passenger miles at a system cost of $812 million, for a cost of $3.09 per passenger mile.[1] Fares covered 7.8% of their costs. The other 92.2% came from payroll taxes and federal grants. For comparison, a Lyft or Uber in the same area would cost you $1-2 per mile. Obviously it's not feasible for all 200k daily riders to take Uber/Lyft, and the Uber/Lyft cost doesn't include externalit…

try it again while calculating infrastructure and road costs for 262mm uber/lyft rides

Because roads are a shared resource used by everyone (even non car owners) Uber/Lyft's portion is small and covered by taxes they already pay.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#382

Post by Der_Einzige »

tristor wrote: post #150
svnt wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is the case if the majority has or exercises little to no effective social power to enforce the norm. The majority consensus is to desire a peaceful environment but do nothing when it is violated.

Correct. But the golden question is, do what? The authorities don't care. Rules and laws are rarely enforced, and when they are enforced they're done so unevenly. If you decide to take matters into your own hands, it's much more likely that you will be punished by the law than the person you were correcting. So, what do you expect people to do?

Create vigalantee laws that legalize “taking matters into your own hands”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_drug_war

Extremely popular and objectively reduced crime and drug usage. In portlands case, you keep weed, steroids, psychedelics, and party drugs legal and come down like hell on the society destroying stuff like fenty

China needed to do similar drastic things to get out of the slump caused by the opium wars. They call that period the “century of humiliation “ for a reason.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#383

Post by xnx »

danaw wrote: post #294
thereisnospork wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many tax dollars go into subsidizing a public transit ride? Varies from place to place but it's not insignificant.

how many tax dollars go to roads and bridges just for cars?

Everyone uses the roads. You have to reach for very obscure examples to find commerce that doesn't utilize roads. Every bit of concrete and steel to build transit was at some point transported over roads.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#384

Post by n8cpdx »

Ritewut wrote: post #350
n8cpdx wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need density for trains, but Portlanders think it is a war crime to ask you to work from an office or tear down a dead mall to build housing, so…

Portlanders do not think this. Survey people in Portland and you'll find they want trains as well. NIMBYs don't and NIMBYs make up the majority of people who actually have the time and wealth to go to city meetings.

I heard people in the kitchen at work whining about the loss of Lloyd center (dead mall) which is set to be replaced by 5,000 housing units.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#385

Post by onethought »

xnx wrote: post #376
array_key_first wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an implementation problem, not a problem with the underlying concept. Public transit like buses and lightrail are significantly more efficient per person than personal vehicles. This is because they can transport many more people for the same amount of space and energy. They also typically run on set tracks, which yields more efficiency gains. The US is really, really bad at doing public transit. It doesn't h…

Train-advocates being against self-driving cars will be recognized as being equivalent to environmentalists being against nuclear power. Fortunately, I don't expect train-advocates as being nearly as successful. Once someone has tried Waymo, there's no going back to the old ways.

But you're ignoring the core point (in both your metaphor and in the argument at hand):

- If everyone took a Waymo... Waymo sucks. Not true of trains.

($/MW of power is stupid with nuclear in the age of solar and batteries, with basically zero safety concern... i.e. you can deploy solar and batteries to houses... not so much for nuclear)

Re: Waymo in Portland

#386

Post by baron816 »

bradleybuda wrote: post #317
array_key_first wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an implementation problem, not a problem with the underlying concept. Public transit like buses and lightrail are significantly more efficient per person than personal vehicles. This is because they can transport many more people for the same amount of space and energy. They also typically run on set tracks, which yields more efficiency gains. The US is really, really bad at doing public transit. It doesn't h…

> This is an implementation problem, not a problem with the underlying concept. I agree. The question remains - why do U.S. municipalities universally and repeatedly fail to successfully implement rapid transit at an efficient price point? Buses, trains, and subways in America have ever-growing budgets (both in absolute and per customer mile terms) with ever-declining quality of service. Just asking for more tax reve…

The problem seems to be that many people view government services as a jobs program. Unfortunately, you can't maximize the number of well paying jobs a program creates AND provide high quality service AND control costs.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#387

Post by xnx »

rrrpdx1 wrote: post #182
starkparker wrote: post #127

For context, this is coming in as TriMet is laying off staff, reducing service frequency, eliminating bus lines, and cutting parts of light rail routes due to a $300M budget shortfall. The cuts were exacerbated by state Republicans getting a proposed payroll tax repeal onto the ballot next month; TriMet relies heavily on payroll taxes that are deeply unpopular among the self-employed and small business owners, so the…

How far into the 'burbs do waymos usually extend? Will Beaverton/hillbsoro be part of the build?

Hard to know. The Waymo bay area service area is 60 miles long.

https://support.google.com/waymo/answer/9059119?hl=en#PHX

Re: Waymo in Portland

#388

Post by akjetma »

JuniperMesos wrote: post #180
starkparker wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in August, the bus line that serves my neighborhood completely goes away, and the next closest bus line with stops 2 miles away will end weekday service after 6:30 p.m. and weekend service altogether. I don't give a fuck if it's free, if it's inaccessible. I'm not crossing SE Foster on a rainy evening to catch a bus that won't take me home afterward.

The bus system would almost certainly be better if it did cost a somewhat-significant amount of money, because one of the biggest problems with public transit in the US is marginalized people getting on public transit and acting in ways that are unpleasant and disruptive to everyone else using it (think about a homeless drug addict passing out on the bus while splayed across several seats; or a schizophrenic screamin…

Really horrifying lack of empathy in your thinking. Also, what a stupid, shortsighted plan.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#389

Post by xnx »

array_key_first wrote: post #295
jonas21 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You get unlimited travel for $100/month on Trimet. Only because the government is subsidizing 90% of TriMet's operating costs. It might be interesting to see what sort of system Waymo could build with a similar subsidy... but that's never going to happen.

Waymo is subsidized. They operate vehicles without paying for the cost of the road, land, or surrounding parking. That's like owning a train system and not paying for the tracks. Yeah... that's a huge part of it. There's also indirect subsidies, for example the cost of land and housing. Cars are extremely space inefficient, so they encourage poor urban design that results in huge amounts of land wasted. Well... the l…

> They operate vehicles without paying for the cost of the road

Everyone uses roads, and everyone pays for roads. If you buy a potato from a grocery store, part of the money paid for fuel for the delivery truck. The tax on that fuel paid for part of the road.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#390

Post by Der_Einzige »

radiorental wrote: post #56
derwiki wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowstorms are probably when I’d most want self driving. Back in February driving from Tahoe to SF, they closed the road, not because of conditions, but because too many impatient drivers spun out. I trust Waymo to go the recommended speed and not get impatient.

Its not always about speed, This winter I was on interstate 93 in a 4WD with winter tyres. I was doing 25-35mph because the roads weren't treated. I still spun out, like many others. The road was an ice rink. Humans and Control System Models need feedback to operate, and worse still... when any input into the vehicle's controls produce zero results, you will spin out. My concern with a model in these conditions is th…

I don’t buy it. Proof you had actual snow rated tires on and still spun out? Otherwise I claim lies are afoot
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