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How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

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381–390 of 390 posts

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#381

"dig in your heels when confronted with overwhelming dissent" Sorry, sticking to this one. Call me anti-social if you want, but facing overwhelming dissent may indicate you're the lone free-thinker in an echo chamber. Being that one guy who's always prodding the hivemind with a pokey stick has value in my opinion (though you will end up getting stung on occasion).

Was recently at a demoscene presentation, where, after one particular demo where the author was recently deceased, one person just didn't stop applauding, even long after the rest of the audience had done. Someone sitting next to him was trying to reason with him, but he just responded that he had been a friend of the author (so I guess this was his way of honoring them?)

Eventually the other person got somewhat aggressive and told him to shut it, to which he just responded "no, why?".

Finally he was led out of the room.

I'm not sure how the thinking process of that guy went, but I was honestly strongly siding with the second person. Keeping on clapping as a sign of honor may be a heartfelt gesture, but here it came over just as plain obnoxious, as it held up the entire presentation.

That being said, if it's about political or other differences of opinion or debates on courses of action to take, I'd be with you - there can be herd mentalities (or active manipulation) and if you have good support/evidence to back up your opinions, it's worth sticking to them.

But if I see that my immediate behavior is causing discomfort, I'd always stop and try to reflect.

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No matter if it was 'done to them', Love the quote marks. Next time try a Marx quote. I mean the brothers. To fellow humans reading: the point is that the ones who did this to you are extremely unlikely to repent. Or even to comprehend that what they did to you is wrong. Even if you were to explicitly hurt yourself - or place yourself in a position where you get hurt very badly - with the intent to communicate "do…

Sadly the human need for being heard and understood is innate, and it has been my experience that books can't substitute for that need. On the other hand, there are swathes of incompetent therapists that can only aggravate one's mental state. The only solution I see is to find the right therapist. Some people might not when their future depends on them finding one, and they give up too early. I can't see how that wou…

>Sadly the human need for being heard and understood is innate

And humans are hell-bent on denying this to each other. Just like sustenance or shelter. Hmm. Wonder what's that all about?

>You'd be surprised

The hypothetical everyman that is addressee in this turn of phrase? Yeah, probably would. Me though? I wouldn't even feign it.

>but I had nobody to do this for me.

Root of the problem right there. Not your fault. (At least if we reason causally, and not scapegoatingly.)

>So I ended up losing years worth of time sticking with incompetent therapists because "going to therapy" like everybody told me to seemed more important than "fixing my life."

Exactly.

Sending someone to therapy is a socially acceptable accountability sink. And a "good vibes"-coded method of gaslighting.

The sender-to-therapy still wants to maintain your acquaintance. They might not even be getting something out of it, or even expecting to gain something; they just want to do the normal thing like they're taught to; which amounts to "do not be seen looking like you're snubbing somebody because dats rood".

And, simultaneously, they don't actually want the cognitive load of acknowledging you as a real person in a real pickle, so they can't "be there for you" (another treacherous wording). After all, reality is a contagious thing; what's next - they become aware of their own shit? Unthinkable - what if that makes them incapable of traumatizing their kids one day? Better just do the normal thing and let you rot. It's all upside!

It's narcissism all the way down, through the bottom, and up by the bootstraps.

(See also cousin post:

>LLMS are more like friends, providing a listening ear, but otherwise just nodding along.

If that's the standard of friendship, it's more useful to make enemies!)

> If I had been given a simple questionnaire to rate my treatment providers on a scale of 1-10 in various dimensions, I would have been put in front of someone else within a month or two.

And then those poor psych grads would've been denied their lucrative and inconsequential careers! The horror, the enormity!

>It's the nature of the problem of mental healthcare

Mental healthcare is impossible without actual concepts of "mind", "health", and "care". The society we inhabit only has some poor statistical approximations of those, Seeing like a State-style. Best "we" can do, therapy-wise, is figure out how to make you scream less loudly.

>As cruel as it sounds, I was in no position to think critically about my own treatment

It does not sound cruel. You are not hurting anybody. You are being critical of your past self. This is, generally speaking, a correct thing to do.

>because my mental state only allowed me to see checking off the box of self-care to get people off my back as the ultimate goal.

Your mental state does not exist in a vacuum; it is primarily a product of your environment. If they teach you box ticking, you're gonna do box ticking. If they misteach you that box ticking appeases, you're gonna keep ticking boxes until it appeases - except it won't and while you're busy waiting for it to appease them, they will do whatever the fuck they want with you. It's their way of life. Who are we to deny them that? How?

Of course, if you've found a therapist that works for you, all of this is probably moot; as to other readers, my suggestion continues to be as follows:

- Begin with rejecting any premise they're trying to force/shame/blackmail you into accepting, no matter how socially acceptable this premise might seem on the surface.

- Then, proceed to deconstruct the premise and its implications from a maximally cynical perspective. This will simplify things to a level where one is able to reason about them even with most higher faculties disabled.

- Once you've used this to regain higher ground (a process which, in itself, is already a source of valuable first-hand experiences), you can commence the actual "debugging" of your higher faculties (and, through that, figure out those things only you can figure out).

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly the human need for being heard and understood is innate, and it has been my experience that books can't substitute for that need. On the other hand, there are swathes of incompetent therapists that can only aggravate one's mental state. The only solution I see is to find the right therapist. Some people might not when their future depends on them finding one, and they give up too early. I can't see how that wou…

You know who's infinitely patient, has read every psychology text book and is available immediately at 2am and not in a week that you have to schedule an appointment for? ChatGPT. (or Claude or any of them.)

I was gonna bet on "the police" but "having read books" kinda disqualified that

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No there isn’t.

There's plenty of research that shows treatment along with talk therapy yields better outcomes than treatment or therapy alone. If you have any evidence or anecdotes that are to the contrary I would love to hear it.

The burden of proof isn’t with me. I am not the one saying therapy works.

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some religious people believe because of their experiences. See the (very rare, statistically) experiencers of spontaneous remissions the Catholic Church declares miraculous healings, such as Dafne Gutierrez: https://catholic-miracles.com/miracle/charbel-makhlouf-dafne... I'm not personally sure that's a supernatural event, but if I'd had my eyes deteriorating for years, undergone multiple failed surgeries to stave o…

> Well, I doubt I'd still be agnostic after that. To me that doesn't follow logically. What if instead of praying to some saint, they found their lucky underwear that they lost when they were a child, and wore that for the first time again? Would that proof that the lucky underwear was somehow instrumental in fixing their eyes? Apparently the body was able to heal her own eyes, and it would have happened if she praye…

> Would that proof that the lucky underwear was somehow instrumental in fixing their eyes?

No, obviously not, as there's no reason to believe the underwear are sentient.

Rapidly getting what you ask for, when experts have generally agreed it's impossible, would be very striking.

> Apparently the body was able to heal her own eyes

There's no more evidence for that claim than there is for the claim that a saint did it.

Indeed, the fact that medical personnel say "This does not happen" is arguably evidence against the "it was a natural coincidence" interpretation.

I don't mean to suggest that anyone experiencing such a healing should or would necessarily become religious.

I'm just saying that personally, given my other life experiences this far, I probably would ratchet my probability of there being some unnatural power capable of intervening in the universe from ~55% to 90%, if I experienced sudden, dramatic healing of incurable blindness promptly after praying for it.

And, returning to my original point, there are people out there who asked for something vanishingly rare to the point that some experts label it impossible, then get it quite rapidly after praying for it.

That's a fairly reasonable reason to believe in a personal God of some sort, even if it's not the only plausible explanation.

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#386
post #211
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That shit makes me so mad. Bringing people to your office in a truly vulnerable state - they're inviting you to judge them. Anyone who doesn't treat them with compassion and kindness lacks what it takes to be a good leader.

I've had the pleasure of interviewing someone, for a coding job in C, where it became clear within 10 minutes that they just didn't know C beyond "hello world". Through body language etc they indicated they weren't chagrined by their lack of knowledge and we should just move on with the interview. At one point I said literally, "You know this interview is for a C coding position, right?" I stopped that interview earl…

I was that person once. It was horrible because the entire time during the interview I knew I was unqualified, and I had to do a coding task to prove it. But before the job, I had no idea, the recruitment agent assured me I had enough experience and I could learn more on the job.

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#387
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - if you must ask questions, convince yourself you must not, just figure it out instead God, this one hurts. In the first couple months at my new role (which I intentionally chose to be one that would stretch and challenge me as I'm looking for some professional growth), a senior member of my team expressed the view that he'd rather someone spend three days researching than ask him a thirty-second question. When I…

My threshold is typically an hour. And this is after all the onboarding and pairing with them for a few features. I throw a month of just interrupt me whenever you need to at any new hire as a lead on a five or so team size on line of business apps. Three days sounds ridiculous for someone to spin and be stuck. That's a huge waste of money and a sign of deep problems imo. In fact, I'd prefer to discuss sooner than le…

> And this is after all the onboarding and pairing with them for a few features

Hahaha. Yeah. This same guy was meant to be my onboarding buddy - I only found that out after ~5 months. I didn't get any onboarding or pairing.

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 days? Wow. Can't say I think much of this senior member of your team, who seems to be the anti-social one here. I'm sure it breaks flow for them, but a big part of being senior is amplifying the best in those less so, and helping them improve. 3 minutes, 30 minutes, sure, I've discovered a lot of junior folks would figure things out on their own when I couldn't get back to them immediately, and tended to add some d…

Pre-internet/stackoverflow, pre-AI... I'd easily spend 3 days working out how to solve a problem that I hadn't seen before. Asking others generally didn't help anyway because they hadn't seen it either. So, if that was the formative experience of the senior person, I could understand where that attiude was coming from. Today, yeah 3 days is a long time to spend researching and spinning your wheels. But it's still the…

> Asking others generally didn't help anyway because they hadn't seen it either.

Fair, and there are certainly some kinds of problem for which asking questions is unlikely to help because it's untrodden ground; and for learning skills, answers are indeed less useful than practice.

But that's not the only kind of problem to be encountered. As sibling commenters point out, questions like "hey, why did we pick Azure over AWS (and is that likely to change at any point soon?)" are questions that _no_ amount of research is going to resolve, because the answer _only_ lives in people's heads. That's not about _learning_, it's about going to the right source for the information.

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of research that shows treatment along with talk therapy yields better outcomes than treatment or therapy alone. If you have any evidence or anecdotes that are to the contrary I would love to hear it.

The burden of proof isn’t with me. I am not the one saying therapy works.

You are the person making the claim "therapy doesn't work", the burden of proof is very much on you

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burden of proof isn’t with me. I am not the one saying therapy works.

You are the person making the claim "therapy doesn't work", the burden of proof is very much on you

Nope not how it works. I don’t have to prove a negative.
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