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German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

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Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#381

Post by lokar »

braabe wrote: post #297
lokar wrote: post #204

A tangent, but I’m interested (as an American) what is the German attitude towards laws that have no enforcement or penalty? Do most people feel an obligation to observe them? Is there any social cost for disregarding them?

I think it varies. I suspect in most common cases the lack of enforcement results from the rest of society not having an appetite to punish it. No harm done, no need to punish. I believe jaywalking (or crossing a red light as a pedestrian) is prohibited, but you would have to do it in front of a really motivated cop (or cause an accident) to actually get a ticket for it. It is common and no one really cares - but if…

Any idea how the attitude compares to the Swiss?

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#382

Post by delecti »

voisin wrote: post #372
fhdkweig wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the United States, adult males have to sign up for the Selective Service for the same reason even though we haven't had conscription since the Vietnam War in the late 1970s(?). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_System

> Annual budget $31.3 million (FY 2024) If it hasn’t been used in 50 years, is there some other use for the registry or the organization or why hasn’t this been cut yet?

Nobody wants to be the guy who got the nation caught with its pants down if conscription needs to come back in a hurry. The same reason the military budget always ratchets upwards.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#383

Post by rustyhancock »

qayxc wrote: post #319
Lucasoato wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you need a written confirmation that may conditionally not be given, you don’t actually have the right.

First of all you don't need it. Secondly, the regulation even states that the right is granted automatically anyway. Technically, the rule had been in place for the past 45+ years anyway - even when there was mandatory military service! - so it doesn't make any practical difference.

Then they should remove the law this weekend. Apparently it is bureaucracy without purpose after all?

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#385

Post by vimbtw »

legitster wrote: post #77

> While the law requires men to request the permit, the spokesperson clarified, it also obliges the military career center to issue it, if "no specific military service is expected during the period in question.” > "Since military service under current law is based exclusively on voluntary participation, such permissions must generally be granted,” the official added. > When asked, the ministry spokesperson pointed o…

It seems like the purpose is to have the law and all the paperwork set up as a precaution for the future. Sure, right now it’s all voluntary and just rubber stamping, but if in the future they need to do something like Ukraine and lock down travel for military aged men, it’s much easier to flip a switch and start denying travel permits rather than having to set up and fund an entirely new system for requiring travel permits.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#386

Post by petre »

ihsw wrote: post #282
mikkupikku wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can a state survive if this weren't the norm? Why would men fight and die for a government that views their own wives and daughters as cannon fodder? If the government is conscripting men's wives to war, is it really in the interest of men to risk their own lives to protect that government? If the government took my wife and sent her to war, I'd sooner firebomb a government office than join up to fight for the go…

How does a state survive if refugees/immigrants are imported en masse and then the state becomes so dysfunctional to such a degree that its male citizens must be conscripted to fight and die for it? Surely this is a recipe for disaster. I would sooner die for my family and my country but I wouldn't lift a finger to save the lives of refugees/immigrants.

You die for your country and the refugees make the state survive. Germany becomes Deutschstan, Köln Dom is converted to a minaret and Hildegard is required to wear a hijab in public at all times, that's how. At least that's probably how Michel Houellebecq would imagine it.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#387

Post by [deleted] »

dmurray wrote: post #162
petcat wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a distinction without a difference to me.

It's an important distinction because it prevents the defence of "oh it's just an old law, there are lots of old laws on the books that everyone knows aren't relevant, they can't be tidied up for political reasons". It was suspended for the last 15 years! Surely it was easier to leave it suspended and unsuspending it is a conscious choice.

[deleted]

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#388

Post by saidnooneever »

cedws wrote: post #375
lpcvoid wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And russia has been violating this too, along with other much worse things, as usual.

Hard to feel the same sympathy for Russian men to be honest, I've seen many gallivanting abroad, whilst majority of Ukrainian men are stuck either in hiding in their own country or have been sent to the front lines. Only a few got out early or by paying bribes.

honestly i am happy for the russian and ukranian young men and women i meet here in NL each day. Glad for them they can dodge the draft. most simply drove out, some had more hastle than others.

war is shit on all sides and thinking one or the other suffers less because you dont like their colours is very short sighted.... i think we had enough time by now to realise it.

and dont call it cowardice if someone doesnt want to fight for a bunch of 'rich pricks' playin with their money while normal people get to die in the streets. It has never been good or normal and should never be.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#389

Post by yolo3000 »

throw-the-towel wrote: post #373
lpcvoid wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And russia has been violating this too, along with other much worse things, as usual.

Factually untrue, Russian men can and do leave the country. Also, nice whataboutism bro.

How about Russians from abroad, do they often go back to Russia?

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#390

Post by eesmith »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #312
eesmith wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, calling one's self "expat" instead of "immigrant" sounds exactly like what someone who goes elsewhere to avoid taxes and draft service, while driving up the local housing market and enjoying cheap labor, would do. Again, if strength is important, then use strength as the draft criteria, not gender. And, you do realize that the vast majority of the military aren't combat troops, right? Drone operator duty doesn't…

A small set of counter examples do not invalidate broad generalizations. And if my state wants to commit economic suicide and there is no way for me to stop it I feel no need to join it.

Over 300,000 women were deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan.

You have no idea what their grip strength was. You have no idea what their overall strength was. You have no idea if their duties required that strength, or if endurance, focus for long periods of time, ability to work in a group, were more imports.

Did you learn your grip strength factoid on some men's rights podcast?

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