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Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

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Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#381

Post by asdff »

nostrademons wrote: post #359
alecbz wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Although [touch typing] refers to typing without using the sense of sight to find the keys ... the term is often used to refer to a specific form of touch typing that involves placing the eight fingers in a horizontal row along the middle of the keyboard (the home row) and having them reach for specific other keys. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_typing I think they're referring to the latter.

The strict definition of touch typing reminds me of how when I was a kid, my parents would always tell me that there’s a specific way of holding chopsticks. You gotta hold the top one like a pencil, and rest the bottom one between the crook of your fingers and your ring finger, and make sure they’re the same length and the bottom one isn’t moving and you’re just using it as a base to press against. And then I became…

I will say you are far faster touch typing proper. I never fully learned it in school. I kind of half do it. Left hand is pretty religously touch typing byt right doesnt' stay on its home row.

Just never cared to get perfect at it in school. I would get absolutely crushed on typing tests though with the kids who actually learned touch typing. They all had piano experience and could reach the modifiers while holding on to the home row still. I still can't really do that on my right hand, its like my pinky doesn't reach.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#382

Post by fc417fc802 »

palmotea wrote: post #326
Guestmodinfo wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zen Z doesn't types to store knowledge. They would rather record the lecture or the meeting. I put aside my fone and put it on record while I am carefully listening to the meeting. I'm not even zen z. I would rather write than type

> Zen Z doesn't types to store knowledge. They would rather record the lecture or the meeting. I put aside my fone and put it on record while I am carefully listening to the meeting. I'm not even zen z. I would rather write than type Recordings are one of the worse ways to store knowledge for later reference, except in usual scenarios. They're very awkward to work with. The only plus is their cheap an easy to make. T…

Previously I would have agreed with you but as of the past year or so that's out of date thanks to automatic device local transcriptions becoming good enough.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#383

Post by WalterBright »

groby_b wrote: post #375
downut wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is hilarious. This comment would imply that the people who got multiple degrees and were very successful through their careers (that would be everybody in my generation: we started in 1980) learning from lecturers scribbling with chalk on a blackboard, writing it all down with pen on paper, somehow had a less effective education than modern students using modern tools. Yeah, looks all around, remembers training…

That's not what I said. I'm absolutely supportive of using blackboards & paper and pen over computers. What I'm saying is that making unsubstantiated claims like "you'll hear the lecture again when you read it" is completely detrimental to making that point, because it's entirely unsubstantiated and doesn't make any relevant point you couldn't make in a well-supported way instead.

The relevant part is it filled in the missing parts of my notes. The prof says more than what he writes.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#384

Post by cmoski »

ninalanyon wrote: post #231
fasterik wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. I think we should use tech in education, but in a targeted way. It's important that children gain basic technical literacy, like how to touch type and use basic software. I suspect there is a gap in the technical literacy of lower income students, whose parents are less likely to have a computer at home. The real problem is separating reading/writing…

> how to touch type What for? I've been writing computer programs and documentation since 1969 and I can't touch type. I've never felt enough pressure to do it. I can still type faster than I can think. When I'm writing most of my time is spent thinking not tapping the keys.

Really? I can touch type and there is no way I can keep up with how fast I can think. Physics seems against you on this one.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#385

Post by chowells »

zer00eyz wrote: post #238
pier25 wrote: post #199

I worked in EdTech about a decade ago and our education/pedagogy experts were already talking about this. They also talked a lot about how handwriting is super important for cognitive development. After working on that company for a couple of years I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. One of the reasons I left. In a decade or two the long term consequences of inundating kids with tech an…

> After working on that company for a couple of years I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. I have several friends who work in education. At one point there were computer labs in school, there was education around computing. The pervasiveness of computing killed these programs, along with various kinds of skill based classes, like wood/auto/home economics (cooking and or sewing). All of t…

"Progress is at fault" only is a criticism of the criticism if it's actually progress. What if actually being forced to slow down and think about a thing is what actually makes you learn it, and anything designed to optimize a process removes its educational value? If that were true, would "EdTech" still be progress?

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#386

Post by layoric »

rz2k wrote: post #315
kpw94 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not using tech that you're describing here. You're talking about literally learning some basic computer skills (such as word processor, excel, reading email, some basic website building, use printer, and some amount of programming) For those, obviously you need a computer and completely agree that those are important skills to learn... But you maybe need to spend 1h/week during last 2 years of middle school on…

I am pretty skeptical about the value of learning to build websites. I think it is too tempting for students to devote significant time to something that is not foundational knowledge and where they won't get any valuable feedback anyway. It makes me think back to my writing assignments in grades 6-12. I spent considerable time making sure the word processor had the exact perfect font, spacing, and formatting with co…

Building websites, I agree has little value, but using it as a way to explain basics of how the web works I think is pretty valuable. Web likely isn't going anywhere for a long time, having some basic knowledge of how it works I think very useful for a lot of people. I hate the idea of any more MS apps like Excel being regularly incorporated, but basic usage of something similar definitely can help know of how to use a useful tool/computer skill. Even in the early 90's we had computer labs for learning computer skills which I think there is value. But forcing tech everywhere into teaching is an issue IMO.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#387

Post by WalterBright »

groby_b wrote: post #368
WalterBright wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a BS claim It worked for me. Have you tried it? > given the quality of college lectures I attended a university where that wasn't a problem. Prof Daniel Goodstein, for example, turned his lectures into a video series "The Mechanical Universe". But, frankly, I liked his in-person lectures using the blackboard and chalk better.

> It worked for me. Have you tried it? I have. It doesn't work that way for me - but that hardly matters. More importantly, there's plenty of research around inner monologue and sensory replay also pointing out that this isn't true for most people. > I attended a university where that wasn't a problem. You were blessed :) > But, frankly, I liked his in-person lectures using the blackboard and chalk better. That's not…

It's been 50 years, the voice has long since evaporated. I wish I had had the prescience to have recorded the lectures on cassettes.

> You were blessed

Indeed, but not totally. I took an economics course, and soon discovered that the prof was a Marxist. Since Marxism is a fantasy, I saw no more value in it than listening to a lecture on astrology.

> many students are very muched biased to discarding these points given half a chance

I have little interest in helping people that don't want to make an effort.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#388

Post by fc417fc802 »

zer00eyz wrote: post #238
pier25 wrote: post #199

I worked in EdTech about a decade ago and our education/pedagogy experts were already talking about this. They also talked a lot about how handwriting is super important for cognitive development. After working on that company for a couple of years I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. One of the reasons I left. In a decade or two the long term consequences of inundating kids with tech an…

> After working on that company for a couple of years I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. I have several friends who work in education. At one point there were computer labs in school, there was education around computing. The pervasiveness of computing killed these programs, along with various kinds of skill based classes, like wood/auto/home economics (cooking and or sewing). All of t…

> "Progress is at fault" is a tale as old as time

Worth noting that all of those examples are adjacent to the industrial revolution. At least personally I don't know enough to have perspective on cottage production but I imagine daily life must have been quite different 1000 years ago.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#389

Post by fc417fc802 »

chowells wrote: post #385
zer00eyz wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After working on that company for a couple of years I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. I have several friends who work in education. At one point there were computer labs in school, there was education around computing. The pervasiveness of computing killed these programs, along with various kinds of skill based classes, like wood/auto/home economics (cooking and or sewing). All of t…

"Progress is at fault" only is a criticism of the criticism if it's actually progress. What if actually being forced to slow down and think about a thing is what actually makes you learn it, and anything designed to optimize a process removes its educational value? If that were true, would "EdTech" still be progress?

I imagine it would depend case by case on exactly what parts were optimized and how. Presumably it's possible to optimize for more time spent thinking as well as for thinking about more useful things.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#390

Post by tshaddox »

mentalgear wrote: post #167
TaupeRanger wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It tells us nothing. People act like this is some big hypocrisy or revelation. First of all, Jobs DID allow his children to use iPads, but it was limited. People take a single quote from the Isaacson biography out of context, assuming that he never let his children have access to iPads at all, forever. Other interviews he gave talked about limiting access - like ALL families should do. Jobs was literally just parenti…

If the fact that these CEOs responsible for propagating disruptive technologies - CEOs exposed to the effects every day, have unprecedented insights (internal analytics) and the best staff around them to assess the tech's potential positive and negative consequences - DO NOT want to their own to partake in it even though advertising it to anyone else, then - if that tells you nothing - you are just plain ignorant or…

Except that the supposed views held by these CEOs (iPads, social media, AI, etc. can be bad for kids) are also widely held mainstream views. That's the only reason people are bringing the views up here...because they already agree with them!

There's absolutely nothing insightful about CEOs with "unprecedented insights" coming to the same conclusions as everyone else.

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