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I quit. The clankers won

dbushell.com

381–390 of 515 posts

Re: I quit. The clankers won

#381

This person gives me the vibe that they are so attached to their craft that they can't seem to do anything about LLM's ubiquity rising but scold and vaguely sloganeer. Was this how other professionals dealt with their grief? Like a translator in the advent of ML based translations? Like a lift man?

I’m reminded of the Douglas Adams quote I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies: 1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works. 2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it. 3. Anything invented af…

"I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems weird and scary to me, and it'll happen to you, too." - Abe Simpson

Re: I quit. The clankers won

#382

> First let’s accept the realities. The giant plagiarism machines have already stolen everything. Copyright is dead. Licenses are washed away in clean rooms. Mass surveillance and tracking are a feature, privacy is a bug. Everything is an “algorithm” optimised to exploit. Suppose that I have discovered a novel algorithm that solves an important basic problem much more efficiently than current techniques do. How do I…

Isaac Newton tried to keep his Calculus secret and almost got scooped by Leibniz. IMO trying to hoard knowledge is not a great look; we all (mostly) have a sense that knowledge belongs to humanity as a whole.

Re: I quit. The clankers won

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could e.g. write specs and only review high level types plus have deterministic validation that no type escapes/"unsafe" hatches were used, or instruct another agent to create adversarial blackbox attempts to break functionality of the primary artifact (which is really just to say "perform QA"). As a simple use-case, I've found LLMs to be much better than me at macro programming, and I don't really need to care a…

Code quality will impact the effectiveness of ai. Less code to read and change in subsequent changes is still useful. There was a while where I became more of a paper architect and stopped coding for a while and I realized I wasn't able to do sufficient code reviews anymore because I lacked context. I went back into the code at some point and realized the mess my team was making and spent a long while cleaning it up.…

I don't disagree that code quality is currently more important than it's ever been (to get the most out of the tools). I expect that quality will increase though as people refine either training or instructions. I was able to get much better (well factored, aligned to business logic) output that I'm generally happy-ish with a couple months ago with some coding guidelines I wrote. It's possible that newer models don't even need that, but they work well enough with it that I haven't touched those instructions since.

Re: I quit. The clankers won

#384
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the immediate term action is to viciously block all crawlers. Writing a blog yes, feeding the beast no.

Yeah, everyone went on "blocking all crawlers" end result being half of internet inaccessible over vpns. Good job, people.

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Re: I quit. The clankers won

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone not learning things via LLM coding right now either doesn't care at all about the underlying code/systems How many bytes is a pointer in C? How many bytes is a shared pointer in C++? What does sysctl do? What about fsync? What is a mutex lock? How is it different from a spin lock? You want to find the n nearest points to a given point on a 2-D Cartesian plane. Could you write the code to solve that on your o…

Agree with pretty much everything you wrote here, I guess with the addendum that LLMs can be a part of the learning experience you're describing. It's as easy as telling the LLM "don't write a single line of code nor command, I want to do everything, your goal is to help me understand what we're doing here." There are always going to be people who just want the end result. The only difference now is that LLM tools al…

I know it sounds extreme to dismiss that workflow, but I don't think people are talking enough about the subtle psychological consequences of LLM writing for this kind of thing.

In the same way that googling for an SEO article's superficial answer ends up meaning you never really bother to memorize it, "ask chat" seems to lead to never really bothering to think hard about it.

Of course I google things, but maybe I should be trying to learn in a way that minimizes the need. Maybe its important to learn how to learn in way that minimizes exposure to sycophantic average-blog-speak.

Re: I quit. The clankers won

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's already happened. Agreed. > Stop trying to make this into some abstract argument. As you mentioned, it's not an abstract argument. It's statements of fact. > A vast (and growing) amount of source code is more open... No, not at all. 1) If you honestly believe that major tech companies will permit both copyright- and license-washing of their most important proprietary code simply because someone ran it through…

This is looking at the current situation through the old lens. That ship has sailed. The revolution is happening. We live in a new reality now, one where we're still trying to figure out what rules should even be. And there will be winners and losers, and copyright and patent law will be modified in an attempt to tame the chaos, with mixed results because of all of the powerful players on both ends. You can live on t…

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Re: I quit. The clankers won

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked for 35ish companies (contract and fulltime), largely on the west coast of the US. I have experienced the lip service, from the vast majority. I have experienced maybe 2 or 3 earnest attempts at growing engineer skills through subsidized admission/travel to talks, tools, or invited instructors.

Care to explain a bit more? With 35 companies, that would be around 1-2 years per company on average if you are retired or near retirement. I doubt any company is seriously investing in a worker who would likely be gone the next year. Getting lip service seems already good deal at that point.

> I doubt any company is seriously investing in a worker who would likely be gone the next year.

There is a mismatch between how you would expect industry to work and what my last 30 years has taught me.

> With 35 companies, that would be around 1-2 years per company on average if you are retired or near retirement.

I have been at 4 companies for around 2 years or more. The rest of the positions were either contract or startup or contract-to-hire. The vast majority of engineers seem to settle in and suffer at terrible companies, rather than make moves to better jobs. They also tend to settle at whatever they are assigned and grow their skillsets by their employer's needs, rather than on their own.

Over the last 2 decades, if you stayed somewhere for over 2 years, you better have added concrete skills to your resume and have increased your compensation by over 10%. If that's not on track, look for another job, imo.

Contract-to-hire has been very popular. ie JPMC, credit, medical, adtech, games, big retail, subcontractor shops, to startups (4 of which were acquired). All initiatives to progress the careers of developers is applied more or less company wide because the line between contract-to-hire and fulltime is considered an engineering issue if there is more than hub. If you are a sole contributor, on some satellite project or still considered in training, you might not participate due to scheduling that had already been arranged, but the idea that contractors are excluded is more a possibility than a certainty. Most of the initiatives are little more than maybe someone talking with you every quarter, anyway.

> Getting lip service seems already good deal at that point.

It's strange that people are assuming engineers are treated special because of a resume that nobody looks at after an offer is made - having conducted hundreds of interviews. This must be a very rare thing some people may do.

Re: I quit. The clankers won

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just isn’t true at all, with guidance and guard rails they produce much better code than the average developer does. They are only going to get better.

That is completely false in my experience. I have never once seen an LLM produce code that would be acceptable. It certainly is worse than what a human can do.

I don't know what model you're using or how you're prompting it, but for me some 60-80% of the time the results require only a little bit of steering to be 'acceptable' (like at least what I would expect from a junior engineer and I'll approve the PR even though it's not quite how I would do it), some 30% of the time the results are pretty much what I would do, and some 10% of the time the results are better than what I would do ("huh, good idea, okay let's do it that way").

They're not perfect by any stretch but if they're being likened to slot machines for code, I'll take those odds almost every day.

Re: I quit. The clankers won

#389

Improving developer skills is not valuable to your company. They don't tell a customer how many person-hours of engineering talent improvement their contract is responsible for. They just want a solved problem. Some companies comprehend how short-sighted this is and invest in professional development in one way or another. They want better engineers so that their operations run better. It's an investment and arguably…

Pour yourself a drink, as I have a longish story that might be a useful metaphor.

Back in the day, there were more or less two consumer flight sims: MS Flight Simulator and XPlane. MSFS was and has always been the much prettier one, much easier to work with; xplane is kludgy, very old-school *NIX, and chonky in terms of resource usage. I was doing some work integrating flight systems data (FDAU/FDR outputs) into a cheaper flight re-creation tool, since the aircraft OEM's tool cost more than my annual salary. Hmm, actually, ten years of my salary.

So why use xplane at all, then?

The difference was that MSFS flight dynamics was driven from a model using table-based lookup that reproduced performance characteristics for a given airframe, whereas xplane (as you might be able to tell from the company name, Laminar Research) does fluid and gas simulation over the actual skin of the airframe, and then does the physics for the forces and masses and such.

I caught some flack for going with xplane: "Why not MSFS!? It's so much prettier!"

Unless the airframe is in a state that is near-equivalent with tabular lookup model, the actual flight is not going to be actually re-created. A plane in distress is very often in a boundary state- at best. OR you might be flying a plane that doesn't really have a model, like, say, a brand new planform (like the company was trying to develop). Without the aerodynamic fundamentals, the further away you get from the model represented by the tabular lookups, the greater the risk gets.

And how does this relate?

Those fundamentals- aerodynamic or mathematical or electrical- will be able to deal with a much broader range than models trained on existing data, regardless of whether or not they are LLMs or tabular lookups. If we rely on LLMs for aerodynamics, for chemistry, for electrical engineering, we are setting ourselves up for something like the 2008 Econopalypse except now it affects ALL the physical sciences; a Black Swan event that breaks reality.

I am genuinely worried we're working outselves into just such an event, where the fundamentals are all but forgotten, and a new phenomenon simply breaks the nuts and bolts of the applied sciences.

As for my xplane selection, it helped in other ways. Because often the FDR data is just plain wrong, but with xplane you could actually tell, because a control surface sticking out one way, while the flight instruments say another, lights up a "YOU GOT PROBLEMS" light in the cockpit as the aircraft inexplicably lurches to the right.

Re: I quit. The clankers won

#390
post #185
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they invented cars (and cars became popular and affordable), people did stop walking everywhere. Jogging wasn’t popularized until the 1970s, when we all realized we needed to be intentional with fitness in our car-based society.

> people did stop walking everywhere. I didn't. Yesterday I walked 11 km for errands. Today I took a detour when walking to work, a more scenic route with less traffic. For me walking is not much slower than using public transport (you need to get to it , then from it to the point of your destination), and not much slower than a car (stuck in traffic, finding parking, not to mention the road rage). I'd be faster on a…

Have you been walking since you were a child? Or were you raised in a car-centric culture, and discovered as an adult that you prefer walking?
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