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Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

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Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#381

Post by dadoum »

MBCook wrote: post #159
WesBrownSQL wrote: post #115

Yeah, I'm stuck on X11 since Wayland and NVIDIA with two video cards for display is hot garbage. I have been a Linux user on the command line since the days of root and boot floppies. I don't think the desktop has felt this broken to me since the early days. I'm a tech veteran and don't have a problem working through issues, but when the issue is "you're running Wayland compositor," Then that's a problem I can't fix.…

There seem to be a lot of people in other places in these comments saying things work for them with Nvidia just fine. But it also sounds like whether things work is heavily dependent on how up-to-date the distribution is. I’m not sure if that’s tied in with Nvidia or not.

In my experience, there are a lot of problems with Optimus-like set-ups (laptop with an Nvidia graphics card which is not active all the time), so having different problems with multiple Nvidia graphics card is something I can believe even if my experience with a single main Nvidia GPU is great.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#382

Post by omnimus »

somat wrote: post #251
lhl wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funy that you mention multi-monitor since it's one of the reasons I eventually moved to Wayland. The only way to support different DPI monitors in X was to do janky scaling or even jankier multiple X servers. I don't use KDE (or GNOME anymore) but while I had to deal with a lot of initial speedbumps a couple years ago, these days instead of a full DE, I'm using a Niri setup and it's worked out great for me. For my la…

The funny thing about this myth is that wayland does not even try to support Mixed DPI setups, the only thing it supports is, as you put it, janky scaling. Not that X is any better in the end but at least it has the data available if any application wants to try to do correct Mixed dpi (nobody does) http://wok.oblomov.eu/tecnologia/mixed-dpi-x11/ So in yet another case of worse is better, wayland has the reputation o…

Myth or not - it is absolutely much better on wayland. I really don't care or know how to tweak linux so i've been using straight install Fedora for years. I also have 4 screens. When Fedora switched to wayland it got much better and it keeps getting better.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#383

Post by ebiederm »

coldtea wrote: post #339
kibwen wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all open-source. If you think the maintainers are trying to sabotage the codebase, you have the freedom to fork it.

"If you don't like the direction of a multi-decade-long, hundreds of manyears, deeply esoteric project, you have the freedom to go in, fork it, and maintain it" is the most technically true, practically meaningless argument in FOSS

But it happens successfully.

The code base is Xorg rather than Xfree86 because of one such fork.

Gcc went through the egcs fork.

OpenOffice became LibreOffice in a fork.

When leadership of a project fails to keep the volunteers behind them such forks happen.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#384

Post by fluffybucktsnek »

tapoxi wrote: post #141
AlienRobot wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is same cop out people use to talk about "Linux." "No, Linux isn't bad, your distro/DE is bad, if you used XYZ then you wouldn't have this problem." And then you waste your time switching to XYZ and you just find new problems in XYZ that you didn't have in your original distro. I'm genuinely tired of this in the Linux community. You can't use the "Wayland" label only for the good stuff like "Wayland is good for…

But that's what we signed up for in the Linux wirld. Linux systems are smorgasbord of different components by design, and that means being specific. I'm using KDE Plasma 6, that's a different experience than someone using Cosmic or Sway.

Furthermore, Wayland is, first and foremost, a protocol, not a standalone software like the Linux kernel. Wayland is no more than an API format transmitted over the Wire protocol. So properly criticizing Wayland is about criticizing the abstraction this API creates and the constraints introduced by it.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#385

Post by c0balt »

schemar wrote: post #373
c0balt wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here, there are some pain points with swaywm (notably screen sharing is only per display, DisplayLink support and screen mirroring is a pain). Most of these points however are IME a worthwhile tradeoff. Sway has also been astoundingly stable (compared to gnome or KDE)

With the next release of sway (1.12) you should be able to share individual windows. https://github.com/emersion/xdg-desktop-portal-wlr/issues/10... https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/8170#issuecomment-3962...

Thank you for pointing that out, I'm looking forward to this release a lot then

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#386

Post by jrm4 »

palata wrote: post #366
jrm4 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Who is forced to use it" is an extremely dated argument strategy that has absolutely no place whatsoever in modern computing. Linux is far too ubiquitous for such a notion to be taken seriously. It's not far from "who is forced to use Macs instead of Windows."

To be fair, I am not the one bringing that point up. The author says "I am forced to use it", they bring it up. I may be on the "Wayland" side here, but I have the exact same reasoning when I am on the other side: I hate systemd, but I genuinely cannot say that "I am forced to use it". I have the freedom to choose a distro that supports alternatives, and that is what I do. For Wayland it seems even easier: it's just…

No, double down -- You personally are not forced to use it, but today this is a terrible argument that, perhaps subconsciously, reinforces the falsehood that "you don't have to use it" is an okay and reasonable response, when it's really merely a selfish one.

Again, Linux is everywhere and the better thing to do is to consider how the bad rollout of Wayland affects everyone -- especially, e.g. that rising 2 or 3 percent who are going for it on the desktop. It is FAR more important to raise that marketshare -- or at least to consider the possibility of it -- than it is to preserve some notion of "well it works for me."

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#387

Post by bikelang »

globalnode wrote: post #122
BowBun wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who is forced to use it? Just use X11, as you said (many times) you do already. This is my understanding of his actual concern - Linux corps are pushing Wayland as a replacement for X11 when it is full of issues. Anecdotally my experience was the same. I'm a dev so I'm fine in a terminal, but trying to switch to KDE actually sent me BACK to Windows. Basic windowing stuff just does not work, and like the OP says, to…

as much as i dislike m$, at least windows works and it works for games and graphics. when i need text or computation without a ui, i use linux. similar to the argument in the article about use what works, i use what works.

Idk - I’ve been trying out Linux gaming on Bazzite and everything seems to just work? It’s been a basically flawless experience.

I dual boot Linux + Windows (technically triple boot - I have a third drive with a different distro for dev work) and I haven’t needed to boot to windows a single time in the ~5 months I’ve been testing out Linux gaming. Not a single game has required any tweaking with proton settings either. My plan is to remove Windows entirely if I make it through the year without needing it.

No issues with drivers, no issues with peripherals (Wired speakers, Bluetooth headset, usb headset, webcam), with 3 displays at different resolutions/framerates/orientations. Running Ryzen 9800x3d and an RTX 4070ti.

Games I’ve played on Linux cover a pretty wide spectrum too.

- Arc Raiders

- Stalker 2

- Kingdom come deliverance 2

- Doom the dark ages

- Timberborn

- Pacific Drive

- Baulders Gate 3

- Disco Elysium

- Peak

- Alan Wake 2

- RV there yet

- Yapyap

- Pentinence

and probably others I’m forgetting.

I honestly wasn’t expecting the experience to be this smooth. Windows days as the gaming default feel numbered.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#388

Post by pgwalsh »

Wayland is the future and yes it took some time but I've been using it for a while. Sure there are annoyances but nothing terrible.

People complained about pipewire and wireplumber too, but they're fantastic. It's great in the DAW. It just takes a long time to get everything compatible.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#389

Post by Buxato »

It seems more that the cat with tinfoil is him. I have been using Linux partially since 1994 and exclusively since 2010 (aprox), never more things were so "just work" and smooth for me like right now. I began using Wayland since this last Kubuntu 25.10, because before even if some things were better I have few problems with my work software, now suspend its perfect, desktop grid with videogames is perfect, multi monitor is great ... even if I have to use a Nvidia GPU on a laptop!

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#390

Post by lyu07282 »

dismalaf wrote: post #156
lyu07282 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> weird Linux conspiracy theories floating around these days There is this MAGA Linux Youtuber that is something to be studied on this topic, especially the community around it (some overlap with HN too), its basically just hate posting about woke, rust, systemd, python, mozilla, wayland, ubuntu, it goes on and on - https://www.youtube.com/bryanlunduke I don't know why some hackers turned so reactionary it's so stran…

Dunno if I'd call the people whining about Wayland hackers. More like freeloaders. Hackers make stuff. Also there's nothing about Linux or hacking culture that would be necessarily left or right wing. Maybe somewhat anti establishment with the desire for computing freedom (and in the west the left is firmly the "establishment", pushing the surveillance state forward).

> and in the west the left is firmly the "establishment"

When I think of the left i think of socialists and anarchists, the establishment you mean are liberals, meaning pro-market/privatization/etc. It always amazes me how the right was able to sell themselves as anti-establishment with the average politically uneducated person. The right also pushes the surveillance state forward, the most substantial surveillance legislation in US history, the Patriot act was bipartisan for instance.

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