Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies • Hacker News Board

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#381

Post by Jensson » Tue, Mar 17, 2026, 5:59 AM UTC

hunterpayne wrote: post #330

awesome_dude wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that I want to add - Westerners have experience of this sort of corruption, every day. Not at a governmental level, and not powered by cash, but it is seen when working for companies. Managers are highly corruptible - it's got next to nothing to do with the output of a given worker, instead it's about their ability to "kiss up" (something framed as "soft skills")

If the managers are not taking bribes or favors for better treatment that isn't corruption...its just bad management. Those aren't he same thing even though you might have the same emotional reaction to them.

> If the managers are not taking bribes or favors for better treatment that isn't corruption

You have a very narrow definition of corruption here. A manager using his management powers to intentionally make his life easier at the cost of the company is corrupt regardless how he does that. He could do that via bribes, but also could do things like hire a lot of deadweight people to bloat his org and raise his own salary without making the company more productive, that is also corruption since he hurt the company to benefit himself.

That isn't "bad management" since it was done intentionally, he knew what he did was bad for the company and good for himself. Corrupt management often masquerades as bad management to avoid getting sued, but it is still corruption.

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#382

Post by bandrami » Tue, Mar 17, 2026, 6:16 AM UTC

gmd63 wrote: post #368

tines wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Access to corruption is never widely understood and accessible to every person, otherwise it would be written into law and stated plainly for everyone to see. This is an uninformed non-sequitur. In China or Mexico for example, it's well known that to get certain things done you have to bribe local officials. The central government is against corruption by policy, but nevertheless corruption is endemic. It's only "i…

I'm interested to hear your informed thoughts on why corruption charges still exist in China if everyone there knows how corruption is happening.

I can't speak to China, but having spent most of the past decade in India and Sri Lanka I can say the problem there is that nobody is willing to unilaterally disarm. Everybody agrees that bakshish is deadweight loss and inefficient, but if Person A stops doing it and Person B doesn't, Person B gets more of whatever the finite resource in question is (slots in a school, permits, gasoline, whatever).

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#383

Post by pastage » Tue, Mar 17, 2026, 7:15 AM UTC

hunterpayne wrote: post #338

titzer wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to this [ https://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/costs-us-nuclear-weapo... ], the US has already spent more than five trillion dollars on nuclear weapons.

Over 85 years and that's an inflation adjusted number. We give away more money each year (USAID/soft power efforts) than we spent on average on nuclear weapons. And neither of those items are of much significance on the US federal budget. Currently, social safety net programs are half of the federal budget and the total military budget is about 1/6th of the budget for reference (that's 2/3rd total between those two p…

No. My point is not that something costs more than something else.

Look at a city and the traffic there we know that everything can either feel empty with only a ~8% decrease, or be completely gridlocked with a ~8% increase. Small adjustments in what we spend money on has a great effect. Being destructive is the easiest way to show this. If you bomb a hospital, does that cost ten million USD for the bombs or one billion USD to rebuild and handle loss of quality of life.

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#384

Post by miroljub » Tue, Mar 17, 2026, 8:49 AM UTC

ses1984 wrote: post #366

miroljub wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please point out where I said Nazi regime was high trust? Its trust level was even lower than of its predecessor.

You didn’t but in the context of the comments immediately above yours, >Eg Nazi Germany still benefited from a high-ish level of social trust, despite numerous atrocities. >What's the benefit of social trust when a society can commit such atrocities? Then you come in with > It's not like atrocities started with Nazis Your comment pretty much directly says the nazis weren’t that bad and in context looks like you’re ag…

Ok, let me clarify.

Nazis were one of the worst regimes we had in Europe, but the German regime before them was also bad. Bad enough that many saw Nazis as a viable alternative. In desperate times, people make desperate choices.

This is more or less a historical consensus, which I pointed out. If we want to prevent a Nazi-like regime from coming to power again, we need to avoid mistakes made by the Weimar Republic. Unfortunately, I see a global trend of governments making the same mistakes again, and I fear it will end in the same way.

I don't think Nazi society was high-trust. But I also don't think Nazis destroyed trust, because it already eroded before them.

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#385

Post by thewhitetulip » Tue, Mar 17, 2026, 8:59 AM UTC

yason wrote: post #130

It's well known that in authoritarian regimes (which autocracies generally are) corruption is, rather than a problem, a necessary element of society to keep things going. Anyone with the slightest amount of official power, like a government officer, has the ability to prevent things going forward on his part. In this kind of society, most people are poor and it would be considered stupid to not demand a small (or lar…

Democracies also have an independent media that can name, shame and investigate.

In autocracies (outright or electoral), the media is used to bash only those who oppose the supreme leader.

That's why when projects are late under opposition its "corruption" or "policy paralysis"

But when the same happens under the party that's ruling via electoral autocracy, it's a "delayed gift"

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#386

Post by pseudohadamard » Tue, Mar 17, 2026, 9:17 AM UTC

josephg wrote: post #356

tines wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Access to corruption is never widely understood and accessible to every person, otherwise it would be written into law and stated plainly for everyone to see. This is an uninformed non-sequitur. In China or Mexico for example, it's well known that to get certain things done you have to bribe local officials. The central government is against corruption by policy, but nevertheless corruption is endemic. It's only "i…

Yes, exactly. I went on holiday to Cairo a few years ago. Small bribes (bashish) is 100% normal there. My tour guide was this bright 22 year old who dreamed of going to the UK to be an uber driver, so he could make enough money to get married. I told him if he went to the UK, he needed to know to never bribe officials, ever. He made the most adorably confused face - like his brain was blue screening. He had no concep…

Greece is kind of the worst-of-both-worlds for this. Nothing works properly, but you also can't pay someone to make it work. In a country with good honest corruption you pay someone else to wait in line for you at the post office while the folks behind the counter smoke, chat to each other, and ignore you. In Greece you can't do that, you have to wait while they smoke, chat to each other, and ignore you. The friend of mine I was visiting also did the brain blue-screen when I asked who you paid to wait in line for you.

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#387

Post by AlecSchueler » Tue, Mar 17, 2026, 9:18 AM UTC

jjcc wrote: post #300

AlecSchueler wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In China, its considered a joke career. Is there a source for this or is more of a vibes thing?

It's widely believed in Western society due to the language barrier to access Chinese social media. But it's not true , or only half true 30 years ago. I personally know 3 or 4 of my alumina abandoned their expertise of Optical Engineering to pursue Lawyer career 20 years ago and made big money. Another example is one of celebrity law professor (not lawyer though) who recently got involved in a controversy because of…

> It's widely believed in Western society due to the language barrier to access Chinese social media.

> But it's not true

Is it even widely believed in the west? I'm European and my idea of China is that it's the home of Confucianism and legalism and that bureaucracy, the state and the law are all taken seriously there.

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#388

Post by pseudohadamard » Tue, Mar 17, 2026, 9:20 AM UTC

ACS_Solver wrote: post #242

btilly wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I commented elsewhere, the Russian name for this is blat. It isn't just corruption. It is a personal trust network for getting things done, that you can't get done if you follow the official rules. You get what you need through corruption, and your ability to do so strengthens your trust in your personal network. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn86C4ZwBSg for an excellent explanation of it. And also an explan…

Right. And oh my do I hate blat. It's a difficult concept to translate to English because it's not synonymous with corruption or bribes. A one-time bribe transaction isn't blat. You want a school to accept your kid so you "gift" the school some supplies, that's not blat, it's a one-time thing and the school principal doesn't owe you any additional favors. Blat is more like a social network of people trading favors, a…

  And oh my do I hate blat.

CYKA BLAT!

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#389

Post by Alan_Writer » Tue, Mar 17, 2026, 9:42 AM UTC

What a topic! I think corruption not only happens as a consequence of authority abuse, regimes, or anything like it, but it's in human nature. It doesn't matter how compliant a society is in terms of order, trust, good manners, etc., there will always be someone unhappy with it, even if it's part of a 0,0001%. Most of the time, corruption is not seen as a bad practice but instead as a regular one. Sometimes even small "favors" are perceived just like that, a regular practice that everyone is aware of, but so unavoidable and unfavored to denounce it. Sadly, corruption runs through our veins (generically speaking) and won't go away just because a clearer system is imposed. Its all about power, control, and superiority. =(

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#390

Post by ACS_Solver » Tue, Mar 17, 2026, 11:14 AM UTC

pseudohadamard wrote: post #386

josephg wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly. I went on holiday to Cairo a few years ago. Small bribes (bashish) is 100% normal there. My tour guide was this bright 22 year old who dreamed of going to the UK to be an uber driver, so he could make enough money to get married. I told him if he went to the UK, he needed to know to never bribe officials, ever. He made the most adorably confused face - like his brain was blue screening. He had no concep…

Greece is kind of the worst-of-both-worlds for this. Nothing works properly, but you also can't pay someone to make it work. In a country with good honest corruption you pay someone else to wait in line for you at the post office while the folks behind the counter smoke, chat to each other, and ignore you. In Greece you can't do that, you have to wait while they smoke, chat to each other, and ignore you. The friend o…

On the upside, a country that undergoes the transition from highly corrupt to well functioning inevitably goes through the stage you describe. My native country was going through that as I was growing up, starting with the Soviet "corruption is just how everything works" to being a fairly well functioning European society now.

Somewhere in between, there was definitely what you described. I've heard people with the remarkable complaint "there isn't even anyone to bribe". Of course if a society gets stuck too long at this stage, it turns into a different problem altogether.