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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#381

Post by bsder »

aziaziazi wrote: post #301
ggiigg wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, that would be great then I can completely ignore them as I am not poor. It just turns speeding into something you can buy.

While I agree with your sarcasm, this proposal is a least bad scenario: no enforcement is worse as there’s less incentive to respect the lights. Sadly money and power buying freedom of law isn’t restricted to road rules.

> While I agree with your sarcasm, this proposal is a least bad scenario: no enforcement is worse as there’s less incentive to respect the lights.

I disagree. This is acknowledging that these are revenue products rather than safety enhancement.

If you want safety enforcement, put a damn cop there. It WILL work. This isn't hard. People are creatures of habit and you don't need to adjust the behavior of very many of them to make the whole group change.

If you don't want to put a cop there, you don't want safety enforcement.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#382

Post by giantg2 »

jcranmer wrote: post #370
giantg2 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if it's established as unconstitutional, couldn't you file a criminal complaint of official oppression against the members of whatever government approved the cameras since they are levying unconstitutional fines?

As an individual and not the government, you can't file a criminal action. You could file a civil action for violation of constitutional rights, but under Roberts, SCOTUS has basically been ripping out all of the mechanisms that would let you file such suits.

"As an individual and not the government, you can't file a criminal action."

You can file with the police, if they take it. You can also file as a private criminal complaint in many jurisdictions. However, it's up to the DA to approve it most of the time. There can be an appeal process where a judge would make a determination.

But yes, if the whole system is corrupt, then there's not much to do.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#383

Post by jakobobobo »

jaredklewis wrote: post #317
sowbug wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consistent, low-impact enforcement is better at preventing unwanted behavior than the rare and severe but also capricious enforcement performed by human police. It can also give permission for unwanted behavior. Cf. the Haifa study, where the rate of late pickups increased when daycares added a fine. One explanation is the fine turned a complex moral obligation into an ordinary financial transaction.

The Haifa daycare study can’t be used to extrapolate much. They fined parents (IIRC) ~$3 per late pickup. Rerun the study with a $300 fine and let’s see how it pans out. It’s an interesting finding, but that then people take it to mean that fines don’t work (no matter their size) is insane.

A $3 fine is a good portion of someone's disposable income and a $300 fine is not much of someone else's.. A civil penalty of that nature almost guarantees some part of the population will view it like the $3 fee.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#384

Post by otterley »

tsimionescu wrote: post #245
cromka wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the same. They know the car was yours so, by extension, you should be aware of its whereabouts at any given moment. If it wasn't you driving, you know who. An illegal activity was committed using your tool and you know who did it. They have every right to question you. If you do not know, you testify as such, but then again you need to plausibly explain why was someone operating your car while you were not aware…

> They have every right to question you. Sure, but they have no right to issue you a ticket without proving you broke the law. Same as in the gun case: they have every right to question you, but they can't convict you for murder based solely on evidence that it was your gun that killed the victim.

A ticket (citation) is a promise to appear before a court, not a conviction of anything. Law enforcement can cite anyone with only reasonable suspicion than a crime or infraction has been committed.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#385

Post by empressplay »

giantg2 wrote: post #315
burningChrome wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They started putting them up in the midwest where I live. The interesting thing is if you get a ticket and just pay it? Nothing. If you get a ticket and you challenge it, the judge will immediately throw it out for the reason you pointed out or just dismiss it before it even gets to court by sending out a form letter saying they nullified the ticket, no reason to pay it. So in essence, if you know this is what they'r…

So if it's established as unconstitutional, couldn't you file a criminal complaint of official oppression against the members of whatever government approved the cameras since they are levying unconstitutional fines?

If they invalidate every contested fine nobody has any standing to make a legal complaint.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#386

Post by observationist »

maxerickson wrote: post #353
observationist wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe not have automated surveillance robonannies playing gotcha games and pocketing money, often impacting those who can least afford it, over technicalities and arbitrary rules made up to benefit the people doing the collecting. The idea that AI enforcement won't be just as corrupt and capricious as any other form of government run extortion is bonkers. You're talking systems with less oversight than openclaw be…

I'm furious that 10% of my federal income taxes end up going to California's bullshit, I can't imagine what it would be like having to live there. Your taxes getting evenly distributed is one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that removing California from the US would either increase your taxes or require reductions in federal spending.

Removing California's corruption, ineptitude, and fraud would eliminate any problems I have with my tax dollars being sent that way.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#387

Post by NetMageSCW »

timeinput wrote: post #207
lateforwork wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running red lights? That's not all the cameras are used for. If are making a right turn on red and didn't come to a complete stop first you can get a ticket.

But why would you do that? Especially if you know there are robots enforcing that you come to a complete stop? There are many places that don't even allow rights (or lefts) on red. I got a right on red ticket once, and then I made it a point to obey the law -- especially at the intersections with the robots. For things like traffic laws especially (where there are very simple cut and dry rules), why is it okay to bre…

Why did you break the law, and why do you still break the law when you know you won’t get caught?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#388

Post by NetMageSCW »

spankalee wrote: post #41
lateforwork wrote: post #19

The problem with red-light cameras is that enforcement becomes robotic. Robots are perfect—they don’t make mistakes (at least in theory), and they don’t show leniency. If policing is done by robots, then humans are expected to be infallible.

Subjectivity in applying the law is a huge problem, especially given how corrupt and violent police are. Red light cameras remove police from the equation for that infraction and apply the law evenly. They also scale in a way that police just can't, and that's extremely important for safety. I live in a city where red light running is an epidemic. Drivers flagrantly just don't stop, and it kills people all the time.…

“all the time”

When was the last person killed by someone running a red light? When was the time before that?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#389

Post by maxerickson »

observationist wrote: post #386
maxerickson wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm furious that 10% of my federal income taxes end up going to California's bullshit, I can't imagine what it would be like having to live there. Your taxes getting evenly distributed is one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that removing California from the US would either increase your taxes or require reductions in federal spending.

Removing California's corruption, ineptitude, and fraud would eliminate any problems I have with my tax dollars being sent that way.

Well that's my point. "sent that way" is not entirely fair. Your state is spending California tax dollars, or so, not the other way around.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#390

Post by hunter2_ »

jakobobobo wrote: post #383
jaredklewis wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Haifa daycare study can’t be used to extrapolate much. They fined parents (IIRC) ~$3 per late pickup. Rerun the study with a $300 fine and let’s see how it pans out. It’s an interesting finding, but that then people take it to mean that fines don’t work (no matter their size) is insane.

A $3 fine is a good portion of someone's disposable income and a $300 fine is not much of someone else's.. A civil penalty of that nature almost guarantees some part of the population will view it like the $3 fee.

This is exactly why license points (leading to suspension) are better than fines.

If the ticketing decision made by an automated camera system is deemed acceptable when issuing mere fines akin to parking tickets, but deemed unacceptable when issuing other penalties (which don't have this wealth inequity issue we are discussing now, at least not exclusively), that's effectively a poor tax.

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