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US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

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381–390 of 458 posts

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#381
post #166

There are so many advantages to turning off and disconnecting these days. Avoiding TOS is just a small part. There are too many demands on our attention and our wallets and most of us aren't getting more money or time. I cancelled all the family's streaming services in 2025. Everyone adapted. It turns out a lot of things we are told we need, we really don't. People lived without them as recently as a few years ago. A…

Did you set up any alternatives? I have a todo to take a day and hook my external SSDs filled with movies/shows up to a plex server, then shutdown all my streaming services.

[Jellyfin](https://jellyfin.org/) is a great alternative to Plex if you haven't taken a look!

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#382
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It turns out a lot of things we are told we need, we really don't. People lived without them as recently as a few years ago. It also often turns out that when some new way comes along to do something that people like to do, the ways they used to do those things go away. If you don't like the new way you can't go back to how it used to be done. The last physical media video rental store within a reasonable drive of…

it's interesting that if you want to watch a movie, torrenting is pretty much the same it was 20 years ago. at this point I torrent movies that are on Netflix (that I have a subscription for) simply because it gets me a better bitrate much more reliably.

It's way better today thanks to advancements in video codecs.

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#383
What really makes me mad is one of the plaintiffs was accessing the service - but only to make sure she wasn’t using the service (any other way).

They then said: “you are accessing the service, so you consent to the TOS!”

That should not count. Nor should a accessing a service to delete your account, file a complaint, ensure you aren’t being stalked, etc.

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets worse x2: the executor of the estate having signed up for Disney+ means the estate of the deceased loses the right to sue, despite the deceased having never signed up. Like a client being bound by all unrelated legal agreements their lawyer entered into. (If I recall the details correct, it has been a while since I read into that case.)

Common sense and decency has departed the world's economic and legal systems for a while, huh? It now seems to be a "how evil can I be without it affecting our bottom line?" system.

It's all just games, they just want to win. Dollars are the overall points, but they're even willing to sacrifice some of those to win bigger cases more brutally.

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#385

It's a bad ruling. By it's logic, McDonald's can mail me a contact where they take my car if I eat at their restaurant and all disputes go to their arbitration court, and I agree to the terms by ordering food from them. It's really no different. In fact, in some ways it's worse because McDonald's can send the contact via certified mail. These courts just want to clear their dockets which is why they reversed.

> These courts just want to clear their dockets which is why they reversed.

You have made no attempt to justify this claim, which, I suspect, you pulled out of thin air, though it amounts to a provocative accusation of significant ethical bankruptcy and judicial malpractice in "these courts" (whichever courts you may be referring to). Do better.

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the company violates their ToS, you can take them to court (or arbitration). It is bi-directionally enforced contract, just not a symmetrically beneficial one.

The benefit is the product. If the TOS is onerous, you can not use the product.

So just endless account churn?

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#387
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The answer is to enter into as few service contracts as possible. Any contract where the other party performs so little seeking of my agreement (none at all really) that no representative talks to me in person or even electronically in an individual capacity, where no one witnesses me put my mark on the paper or hears by verbal assent, is in fact no contract at all. Despite what the courts may say. Should they say o…

READ CAREFULLY. YOU HAVE ALREADY AGREED TO THIS. 1. By reading the message that referred you to this page ("randomstring.org/~dsr/eula.html") you agree, on behalf of yourself and your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use…

I wonder if appending something like this to the user agent string could work in court as a justification.

"Your Honour, the plaintiff's webserver engine thoroughly accepted my client's cookie which expressly stated the waiver of terms brought forward, and continued to serve requested content instead of stopping or refusing further interactions."

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#388
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Sweden the thing that makes something a contract is that you can't change it-- that it has definite provisions that have been agreed and that both parties actually expect the other to hold up their part. The US breaking its contract law to treat non-contracts as contracts is one of the most insane things I've seen a legal system do to itself.

That's not what's happening as far as I can tell. These users have agreed to a monthly contract or, if there is no money paid, a contract with no finite end date but with provisions to change terms, essentially terminating and restarting. So the service provider has decided to amend the contract at the end of the current (one month) contract in the first case, or on some date arbitrary date in the second (unpaid). Th…

I think the way it would normally work is that you present them with the price offer and ask whether they accept, and if they do you render the service.

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#389
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what's happening as far as I can tell. These users have agreed to a monthly contract or, if there is no money paid, a contract with no finite end date but with provisions to change terms, essentially terminating and restarting. So the service provider has decided to amend the contract at the end of the current (one month) contract in the first case, or on some date arbitrary date in the second (unpaid). Th…

I think the way it would normally work is that you present them with the price offer and ask whether they accept, and if they do you render the service.

This is exactly the same. The company has changed the terms under which they will offer the service starting next contract renewal.

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#390
post #385

It's a bad ruling. By it's logic, McDonald's can mail me a contact where they take my car if I eat at their restaurant and all disputes go to their arbitration court, and I agree to the terms by ordering food from them. It's really no different. In fact, in some ways it's worse because McDonald's can send the contact via certified mail. These courts just want to clear their dockets which is why they reversed.

> These courts just want to clear their dockets which is why they reversed. You have made no attempt to justify this claim, which, I suspect, you pulled out of thin air, though it amounts to a provocative accusation of significant ethical bankruptcy and judicial malpractice in "these courts" (whichever courts you may be referring to). Do better.

> whichever courts you may be referring to

The 9th district court of appeals, something that's on the first page of the ruling. Did you read it? That was implicit in this comment thread.

And the justification is the fact that this is an unpublished ruling "This disposition is not appropriate for publication and is not precedent except as provided by Ninth Circuit Rule 36-3"

That alone is a good sign that these judges don't really think this is a great argument.

And, if you read the ruling (which lacks a dissent). It's extremely weak. California law requires that the end user makes an affirmative action to accept a TOS agreement in the form of checking a box or clicking a button. Something the court admits the defendant does not do.

They make a lot of hay around how wonderful the email was, but who cares? Just showing someone text does not count as accepting the TOS.

They had to construe the fact that the plaintiff used the app later as being an acceptance of the TOS. TOS which include moving the case of stalking out of the federal courts and into the arbitration courts which Tile picked. The fact that this reduces their case load is apparent because if they didn't force this into arbitration the court would end up dealing with all the appeals that Tile would invariably file.

Maybe you should do better and actually read the linked ruling before accusing others. My example is exactly the sort of behavior that this court would find acceptable for accepting a TOS change.

I'm assuming bad motivations because this is a garbage ruling. And the only reason why they'd make such a ruling is case load. That, in fact, is charitable to these judges.

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