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Significant US farm losses persist, despite federal assistance

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Re: Significant US farm losses persist, despite federal assistance

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument might sound good, but those cattle are fed crops, not just sunshine and the grass they walk on. Most crops grown in the US are used as animal feed. They are dependent on arable land that could be used to grow food for humans directly and much more efficiently. We just like the taste, so we accept the inefficiency.

Eh. The "inefficent calorie conversion" take is sort of lazy and misses the nuances. I just looked it uo, and it seems that only about 55% of yields are for feed, and there is definitely some more nuance there, since a lot of feed meal comes from stalks and parts if the plants humans would not consume. This notion of calorie inefficiency also misses the mark on what would be planted and harvested instead to contain t…

You’re right that a lot of livestock feed is crop residues/byproducts humans don’t eat—but that doesn’t make beef “necessary” or erase the land/opportunity-cost problem. Globally, ~36% of crop calories go to animal feed and only ~12% of those feed calories come back as animal-product calories (Cassidy et al.). Livestock still consume ~1/3 of global cereal production (Mottet et al.). And in full-system LCAs that include grazing + feed land, meat/dairy provide ~18% of calories and ~37% of protein but use ~83% of farmland; cutting them can reduce farmland >75% while still feeding the world (Poore & Nemecek / Oxford). Plus, even if pasture isn’t croppable, it can be restored—land used for animal foods has a big carbon opportunity cost (Hayek et al.). Nutritionally, major dietetic bodies say well-planned vegetarian/vegan diets can be nutritionally adequate, with attention to nutrients like B12.

Re: Significant US farm losses persist, despite federal assistance

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fix is more expensive food. Everyone loves the mom and pop businesses but shops at walmart for those rock bottom prices. We can have our fresh family farms back, but you're paying double for your food. We have the system we have because people value cheap/affordable over everything, regardless of what they upvote on the internet.

Europe has a very robust, high quality and cheap food system. Food is extremely high quality, environment is managed and wealth is distributed with support for small farmers. High quality food is a fraction in Europe of what you pay in the US. There is additional cost to taxpayers of Europe but US taxpayers are paying a ton for the US system too but just getting worse outcomes. This can be done.

I've lived in Sweden, Germany, and the United States. Just being honest about my experience here, but the cheap stuff (like potatoes) are cheaper in the EU but the expensive stuff (like beef[0]) are more expensive.

[0] https://www.globalproductprices.com/rankings/beef_price/

Re: Significant US farm losses persist, despite federal assistance

#384
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada dumps good milk down the drain while people go hungry and suffer high food prices. The supply management system is not perfect.

You can't produce an exact amount of food. It isn't an assembly line, it's farming, it's biological. You need to aim for excess, to ensure enough is produced during drought, animal sickness, and other variability. What Canada does is ensure there is excess, but not crazy amounts. It also ensures the market price is fair to farmers. What you call "high food price" we call "farmers not going bankrupt". And while nothin…

Ok, so why waste the excess product? Why not feed the hungry, locally or abroad?

Funny, my family is in farming in Ontario, and we know the the number of family owned farms is in the decline! So the system isn't really working to stop the trend.

Supply management isn't perfect, but a few players benifit greatly from it and resist the change at the expense of the consumer!

Re: Significant US farm losses persist, despite federal assistance

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Personally I don't understand the love that agriculture shows to the Republican party, but hey you get what you vote for. It seems like this whole year has been implementing policy after policy that screws over agriculture. USAid (big purchaser) gone. 40 billion sent to Argentina. Antagonize Canadians (Canadians !!) so they boycott American produce. Tarif China so they'll reciprocate on soy beans. Deport far…

Isn't most ag in the US just big business at this point? Sure, there are still some small farms.. but there are also rich folk like the Treasury Secretary who maintain farms for status and financial benefits(farms get all sorts of special treatment for taxes, bankruptcy and inheritance).

Pretty much, the whole small farmer trying to make a buck is a huge propaganda push, several companies own millions of acreage.

I feel bad for the smaller farmers for sure but they are vastly overrepresented in the proportional losses because Americans have much less sympathy for large corporations rather than individual business owners. Whats even more frustrating that if you try to read more about this you just get wall after wall about how bill gates owns the most which is patently false

Re: Significant US farm losses persist, despite federal assistance

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I buy all this, and I think your analysis is spot on. There's z log of cognitive dissonance going on here. >> One common theme has been that farmers are by necessity highly independent. I think they like to think of themselves as highly independent. But in truth of course they are highly dependent, on city customers for their product, on foreign countries for exports, on federal govt for subsidies (both direct and in…

>and in some cases on immigrant labor. Why tho do you feel the need to defend big agri businesses skirting employment law and pressuring wages downward by bringing in illegal people? I find it a bit weird looking at the US how they seem to kneejerk into different camps depending on what the other side does with some old outliers like bernie who retain their line. >Ironically they may tolerate local govt, and had fede…

>Why tho do you feel the need to defend big agri businesses skirting employment law and pressuring wages downward by bringing in illegal people? I find it a bit weird looking at the US how they seem to kneejerk into different camps depending on what the other side does with some old outliers like bernie who retain their line.

Margins are tight for produce, I don't think it's that immigrants are depressing the wages its more so consumer preference and competition. Yes, if it was more punishing for companies caught hiring people without verification it would increase wages, but it would also increase the price of food, something which has been wildy unpopular with the voter base

>Just the paperwork to run a competitive farm was/would have been impossible to deal with for many of these people and it was so clearly made up by people who never had to deal with the consequences directly.

This is a problem, I hate that with the so called "digital era" that paperwork and online forms have replaced human contacts, why do governments not care about having subsidiary brokers who are invested in both preventing fraud and talking to people who require assistance, doorman fallacy i guess.

Re: Significant US farm losses persist, despite federal assistance

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a US citizen, just an observer. What is the alternative when the Democrats appear just as much beholden to corporate finance, and position themselves as the party for city dwellers? I also disagree on the wealth redistribution. Government agencies are managers of risk. * Is there a risk to the country's food security if farmers go bust on mass? Then the Government needs to mitigate that risk. Fairly simple.…

> What is the alternative when the Democrats appear just as much beholden to corporate finance, and position themselves as the party for city dwellers? For the love of God, please don't "both sides" this stuff. When is the last time you took a look at the bills coming before Congress and how they were voted on? Like, literally go to the congressional website and view bills and vote tallies? Would you believe it if I…

Democrats couldn't fix a single thing while in power and have now lost to Trump twice, you need to stop enabling these absolute losers. Look at the people they keep running! They have no spine and will crumble at the slightest push back. It's all "Aw shucks the parliamentarian said we couldn't" bullshit. They see politics as a cash generating mechanism for consultants, not a means for improving the country. I'm so tired of being texted for more money by these cowards. Insane to think they won't just set conditions for the next Trump all over again. God I wish Sheinbaum could run for office here.

Re: Significant US farm losses persist, despite federal assistance

#388
post #107

Of all the guns that rural Americans love, the humble foot-gun is the most beloved. --- Someone else can argue the morality, ethics, economics, and politics of it all, but VERY simply, US Federal Government Agencies are machines for redistributing wealth from cities to rural areas. Rural America voted quite heavily to stop those subsidies. That's what efficiency means. --- Maturity means suspending judgement and list…

I think that our political class has been captured by corporate interests and both parties in the US are approaching supporting the executive class by manipulating their constituents. With social media it has become especially toxic. They have linked every possible issue to identity and now you need to perform some form of ego death to think independently in accordance to your best interests. Few people have the capacity to accomplish that.

We are all mostly voting against our interests. We need to be manipulating the political class to fulfill our needs. That manipulation should be driven by rational discourse informed by scholarly research in addition to respecting the various cultural needs of the society.

This particular situation we are in is grave and needs immediate correction.

Re: Significant US farm losses persist, despite federal assistance

#389
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the fact that chlorination is needed. You're wrong. The whole point is this: in EU, you cannot chlorinate your chickens. This means that to sell chicken, you need to make sure that your chicken is good to eat without chlorination (by making sure your whole production chain is sanitized up to sufficient level). In the US you don't need to make sure your production chain is super high sanitation quality because y…

>The real reason for the difference in policy is the incentives that it creates for the meat-producers. In the US there is no incentive to keep sanitation up in the production chains because the chicken will be chlorinated anyway. This actually incentivizes sloppy (cheaper) production methods over ones that are more sanitized but more costly. If there's no actual downsides from the chlorine, what's the issue? In many…

The point is that it's a technical criteria that allows you to exclude American production from Europe. It's just protectionism.

Re: Significant US farm losses persist, despite federal assistance

#390
post #160

Much of this is an antitrust problem. The inputs to farming, especially seeds, fertilizer and machinery, are controlled by monopolies and near-monopolies. There have been too many mergers. On the sell side, there's monopsony or near-monopsony, with very few big buyers.[1] Farmers are caught in the middle, with little pricing power on either side. There's not much question about this. There are antitrust cases, but wi…

No, much of this is a political issue. America wants food standards that are different from many trading partners; fair enough. But it makes it impossible to export many farm goods as a result. This is outside of the current political climate, and has been going on for ages. It's just coming it a head now.

Antitrust is a political issue. Or lack of political will issue.
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