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Are Apple gift cards safe to redeem?

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381–390 of 479 posts

Re: Are Apple gift cards safe to redeem?

#381
post #10

This fiasco stirs up a lot of different topics for me, none of which seem like they are likely to be resolved anytime soon. First, with so much importance placed on an Apple/iCloud account in our current era it's not good that they can be shutdown so trivially. Someone can be shut out from using Messages, Apple Wallet, Digital Identification (depending on where they live) and all their subscriptions and media purchas…

iCloud is overrated, it was not encrypted at rest for ages. I much prefer using Time Machine and keeping the passcodes in a PW manager, and maybe a safe deposit box as a backup.

Re: Are Apple gift cards safe to redeem?

#382

I suspect the underlying problem is that the gap between legitimate use of gift cards and fraudulent use of gift cards is just not very large... Years ago I briefly played around with "manufactured spend" (on credit cards, to earn frequent flyer miles). There was one specific loophole, with one specific gift card provider, and it was a doozy. You could earn credit card points on spend, plus supermarket loyalty points…

> the gap between legitimate use of gift cards and fraudulent use of gift cards is just not very large.

And many legitimate uses of gift cards may actually have been fraudulent somewhere up the chain.

Imagine a scammer which sells their cards to real users (perhaps through one or more less-than-scrupulous intermediaries willing to buy them in crypto without asking too many questions). If the victim comes to their senses and somehow gets those cards reported and blocked as fraudulent, unsuspecting users will get into trouble.

Re: Are Apple gift cards safe to redeem?

#383
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but it has no value and nothing negative happens if it is revoked. Further: the three apps I install are not crucial - I could live just fine without them. All I really need is Safari and a working POTS endpoint for my cloud-hosted phone number ...

Curious: How do you do your banking? Most of my banks de-facto require an Android or iOS app for authentication, unless you want to do all your banking in person and pay hundreds of Euros in fees every month (and even that would exclude you from many services).

I am a US person and the four (three very large and one smaller, regional) banks that I use do not have any such requirements.

Web based online banking (since nothing related to banking requires 3D or VR/AR or camera/mic access or other fancy things that apps do) and 2FA auth. That is all I have ever seen or used.

Re: Are Apple gift cards safe to redeem?

#384
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I previously worked in fraud/risk at a major ecommerce platform. On my biggest day I closed 60,000 accounts. In one day. I knew other agents who'd done 10x that. The scale of this work is unfathomable to those who have only been on the consumer side of it. #1 is doable but would destroy our ability to combat fraud. "Here's how not to get banned next time" is not an email anyone in this space would consider sending. #…

Can you provide any insight into the logic of closing an account that tries to activate an already redeemed gift card? I’ve tried to come up with some strawman explanation but I can’t see it.

Since you asked I will share some wild speculation, but to be clear I don't know how Apple's fraud prevention works.

Gift cards are the currency of modern confidence scams. Accounts that redeem a lot of high value gift cards are suspect for that reason alone. Buttfield-Addison makes it sound like this is common practice for him, so his account may have been on a shitlist already.

Apple may be so sensitive they'd close a suspect account after one failed redemption. It's also possible that card was first redeemed by an account that was closed soon after for fraud, and Buttfield-Addison's subsequent attempt linked his already-suspect account to the fraudulent one resulting in automated actioning.

Again, this is pure speculation, and is not meant to justify Apple's actions.

Re: Are Apple gift cards safe to redeem?

#385

I suspect the underlying problem is that the gap between legitimate use of gift cards and fraudulent use of gift cards is just not very large... Years ago I briefly played around with "manufactured spend" (on credit cards, to earn frequent flyer miles). There was one specific loophole, with one specific gift card provider, and it was a doozy. You could earn credit card points on spend, plus supermarket loyalty points…

> it dawned on me that what I was doing was basically indistinguishable from money laundering. Of course it was NOT money laundering But it is money laundering, that's what manufacturing spend is. It's not money laundering to hide evidence of a crime, but it is money laundering for the purpose of hiding the fact that you didn't engage in commerce in the process of spending money on a credit card to earn a reward. It'…

We criminalize behavior based on whatever we feel like, based on our cultural expectations of what is allowed. That's what "we criminalize behavior not only on its base but due to its intent" and "considering the context" is all about. That's why we have juries. We reserve the right to break the rules if public opinion allows, based on our feelings. It turns out that justice in practice is not so blind.

For example, we feel like it is fair for credit card companies to monopolize payment systems, charge fees to businesses, and use a portion of the money from this scheme to set up this bullshit reward point system.

But to undermine this system is criminal, because the system is established, but undermining it is novel and therefore disallowed. Any new way to play the game is breaking the rules, because the purpose of the system is what it does.

Re: Are Apple gift cards safe to redeem?

#386
post #10

This fiasco stirs up a lot of different topics for me, none of which seem like they are likely to be resolved anytime soon. First, with so much importance placed on an Apple/iCloud account in our current era it's not good that they can be shutdown so trivially. Someone can be shut out from using Messages, Apple Wallet, Digital Identification (depending on where they live) and all their subscriptions and media purchas…

To put this as plainly as I possibly can:

1. It is objectively true that Apple and Google accounts are extremely important to many people.

2. It is also objectively true that most users will only need one of each, a few at most. Fraudsters have no such limitations, and may want to create thousands of them per day if the possibility arises.

3. Therefore, it's likely that a significant percentage of all accounts ever created are fraudulent, even if the actual number of fraudsters is much lower. This is the crucial observation many people miss in this debate.

4. Real users do not want constant iMessage spam and other problems resulting from fraudulent accounts remaining open. Therefore, normal users care deeply about fraudulent accounts being closed promptly (and so do money-laundering regulators, but that's another discussion).

5. Normal users also care about their accounts remaining open. Apple has to balance these two problems.

6. If we force Apple (by regulation, PR crisis or any other method) to be softer on closures, the only way to do that without exacerbating #4 is to make opening fraudulent accounts harder.

7. The only reliable way of preventing fraudsters from opening accounts is strict and invasive identity verification.

8. Therefore, if we're asking Apple / Google to keep more accounts open, we're also asking for more surveillance.

This may actually be the right tradeoff to make, but it is important to point out that there is a tradeoff here, and that no decision in this regard goes without consequences.

Re: Are Apple gift cards safe to redeem?

#387

I suspect the underlying problem is that the gap between legitimate use of gift cards and fraudulent use of gift cards is just not very large... Years ago I briefly played around with "manufactured spend" (on credit cards, to earn frequent flyer miles). There was one specific loophole, with one specific gift card provider, and it was a doozy. You could earn credit card points on spend, plus supermarket loyalty points…

I did this ages ago to build up airline points and take a nice trip to the EU. Back then, the trick was to get a generic Vanilla Visa or other prepaid credit card. A recent legal ruling meant they had to be run as a debit card for... reasons... I forget them. But a lot of grocery stores would sell you a money order up to 500 bucks for under a dollar with a debit card (not a credit card). So you'd call up the issuer a…

>Back then, the trick was to get a generic Vanilla Visa or other prepaid credit card. A recent legal ruling meant they had to be run as a debit card for... reasons... I forget them.

Interchange fees, probably. Otherwise the credit card companies is taking a 2-3% cut.

>So you'd call up the issuer and have them issue it a PIN. Then you'd run it as a debit card and buy a 500 dollar money order.

I don't know how this ever could have worked considering that "cash-like transactions" are counted as cash advances, same as if you were to use your credit card at an ATM.

Re: Are Apple gift cards safe to redeem?

#388
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did this ages ago to build up airline points and take a nice trip to the EU. Back then, the trick was to get a generic Vanilla Visa or other prepaid credit card. A recent legal ruling meant they had to be run as a debit card for... reasons... I forget them. But a lot of grocery stores would sell you a money order up to 500 bucks for under a dollar with a debit card (not a credit card). So you'd call up the issuer a…

>Back then, the trick was to get a generic Vanilla Visa or other prepaid credit card. A recent legal ruling meant they had to be run as a debit card for... reasons... I forget them. Interchange fees, probably. Otherwise the credit card companies is taking a 2-3% cut. >So you'd call up the issuer and have them issue it a PIN. Then you'd run it as a debit card and buy a 500 dollar money order. I don't know how this eve…

You're not running it as a credit card, and it's not a credit card -- you can't do a cash advance on a gift card. But they sold ones that were accepted anywhere visa or MC is accepted rather than specific stores.

Re: Are Apple gift cards safe to redeem?

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it dawned on me that what I was doing was basically indistinguishable from money laundering. Of course it was NOT money laundering But it is money laundering, that's what manufacturing spend is. It's not money laundering to hide evidence of a crime, but it is money laundering for the purpose of hiding the fact that you didn't engage in commerce in the process of spending money on a credit card to earn a reward. It'…

We criminalize behavior based on whatever we feel like, based on our cultural expectations of what is allowed. That's what "we criminalize behavior not only on its base but due to its intent" and "considering the context" is all about. That's why we have juries. We reserve the right to break the rules if public opinion allows, based on our feelings. It turns out that justice in practice is not so blind. For example,…

I wasn't trying to write a fully formed political dissertation, so I'm not really sure what you were expecting in response to this comment? My point was that the GP was describing their behavior as "indistinguishable from money laundering", because it technically is a form of money laundering (the act) even if it's not money laundering (the crime). Intent is what turns the act into a crime, specifically in the case of money laundering.

It's not illegal to buy a few beers every evening from a bar you own out of your own pocket, and then book that revenue, pay taxes on it, and then ultimately collect a distribution of the profits as the owner of the business. It is illegal to do the same thing if the money you took out of your pocket came from selling drugs.

Re: Are Apple gift cards safe to redeem?

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banks frequently completely freeze accounts for no discernable reason and with zero communication, support, or recourse. You're just lucky that it hasn't happened to you. That does not mean it doesn't happen to anyone.

Banks are well regulated and will face meaningful consequences for getting this wrong with any regularity.

More important than "well-regulated" is that a bank account is very clearly tied to a single geographic jurisdiction where the bank's headquarters, as well as all its branches and employees, are located.

Apple would be much harder to regulate, as it wouldn't even be clear what jurisdictions should be involve in the process, and what a "change of jurisdiction" would entail. It would also create the opportunity for fraudsters to choose the jurisdiction which gives them the most consumer protections but has the loosest identity verification requirements.

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