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Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

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Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#381

Post by marcosdumay »

dralley wrote: post #95
zug_zug wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if it's "legal" or not and by who's laws, but it certainly seems like terrorism to me (i.e. intentionally creating a state of terror). I think if Lebanon found a clever way to assassinate the top 45 military commanders in Israel the same people who are defending this wouldn't be calling it a "Legal act of war".

Targeted attacks against military/militia leadership is not terrorism - almost by definition. If it was just random devices exploding, then sure, that could be considered terrorism. But it wasn't random devices, it was communication devices procured by Hezbollah and directly given by Hezbollah to their own members for their own purposes.

The Irish terrorists that were mostly the responsible to put word "terrorism" into political discourse targeted almost exclusively politicians and military. And targeted way better than that Israel attack.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#382

Post by kyboren »

dang wrote: post #356
kyboren wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point isn't so much to litigate each flagged comment, just to highlight how pervasive the flag abuse problem is. And of course, when the flag abusers 'defect' and gain some utility, it is only rational for the 'victims' to themselves defect from the civil conversation and start to abuse flags. In threads that are, unfortunately, adversarial, abusing the flag button is a stable Nash equilibrium. I think it's a shi…

I don't assess it that way. In any case, I am certain that turning off flags on controversial topics would have a devastating effect. To me that's like saying "let's turn off the immune system for the most fatal viruses".

To be clear, I am not suggesting to eliminate any form of moderation whatsoever. I think threads like these require intensive manual moderation.

I recognize that's a big ask for an already-overburdened mod. I just don't see any good alternative.

Separately, I want to express that while I don't always agree with you, I think you generally do an excellent job moderating and I appreciate your efforts to keep this community free and healthy.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#383

Post by Qiu_Zhanxuan »

impossiblefork wrote: post #8

I actually consider the pager attack to be legal. There's obviously criticism of it, but I'm fairly sure you're allowed to do this kind of thing by laws of war. Obviously this creates a huge problem for pretty much everyone though, since we can imagine that our ordinary consumer products from all sorts countries could similarly explode if we ended up at war with the manufacturers.

It's not legal, the consensus among human rights organizations and UN experts is that it's a violation of international humanitarian law. But I guess the American urge to see middle eastern people suffer is alive and well.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#384

Post by underdeserver »

I am in awe of the opinions in this thread. Really.

If Israel, unprovoked, randomly carried out this attack it would be one thing. But:

1. Hezbollah had been continuously, deliberately firing rockets at civilians since October 8th, 2023 displacing tens of thousands and killing multiple civilians including 12 children in a playground in Majdal Shams.

2. Hezbollah embeds itself and fires from within civilian population in Lebanon

3. Hezbollah leadership had stated that they intend to escalate their attacks including a ground invasion of Israel

I think everyone in this thread criticizing this operation needs to first explain what they would have Israel do in this situation.

Because if you think Israel should retaliate against Hezbollah at all, please explain how you, in Israel's shoes, would achieve a comparable result with fewer civilian casualties.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#385

Post by richardfeynman »

C6JEsQeQa5fCjE wrote: post #374
richardfeynman wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am simply pointing out OP's double standard: when it comes to Israel, everything is to be distrusted; when it comes to Israel's enemies, everything is to be believed. I am well-aware of the differences between Hamas and Hezbollah and have studied this conflict for well over two decades.

> when it comes to Israel, everything is to be distrusted Correct, with a good reason for it. Israelis have been caught lying so many times that now when they make a claim, it is on them to prove that the claim is correct, rather than on others to prove that it is not. Just a few examples off the top of my head include: - The killing of medical workers in a convoy of ambulances and burying them in shallow graves, the…

Hi there, I see you too trust Hamas sources (the origin of the Hind Rajab sotry) and not Israeli sources, so you too are in the camp of "believe hamas" and "doubt israel".

1. Hamas used World Central Kitchen vehicles, according even to the head of World Central Kitchen, who initially condemned the attack and then later admitted Hamas used WCK vehicles. You didn't know this, did you?

2. A few questions on the Hind Rajab incident: Was the car stationary or moving? was it travelling north to a combat zone or south away from one? According to the original Arabic reports, did the family get out of the car or were they trapped inside? In the audio of this attack, was there any crossfire? When was Hind Rajab killed? Was it at 8:10am or at 2:30pm? What happened in those 6 hours? How can you be sure this was not a "fog of war" incident as opposed to a deliberate targeting of a civilian?

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#386

Post by tguvot »

dang wrote: post #237
tguvot wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I don't agree, and there are many counterexamples in this thread alone. People who are passionate about a divisive topic often feel like the site/moderators/community are hopelessly biased against their view. The people with opposing views feel exactly the same way—which, ironically, becomes the one thing they can agree about, although they disagree about the direction. This is ultimately a function of how the passio…

you are avoiding the actual topic in question and try to divert discussion into different direction.

flags are been abused and you don't do anything about it, short of "show me wrongly flagged comment and i'll unflag it if i think it was flagged wrong"

can you openly admit that flags are been abused and misused to silence opinions that people disagree with ?

if you can't agree with such a trivial statement, I don't think there is anything to discuss here.

ps. obviously after i made 3 comments i am throttled and cant post this comment

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#387

Post by FridayoLeary »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #18
impossiblefork wrote: post #8

I actually consider the pager attack to be legal. There's obviously criticism of it, but I'm fairly sure you're allowed to do this kind of thing by laws of war. Obviously this creates a huge problem for pretty much everyone though, since we can imagine that our ordinary consumer products from all sorts countries could similarly explode if we ended up at war with the manufacturers.

All of the arguments I've seen supporting this attack focus on the idea that it's fine to kill and maim civilians including children as long as you will probably get some combatants. It's a little bit open to interpretation, I guess, and I'm not a legal expert so fine, ok. But booby trapping mundane daily objects accessible to non-combatants is a clear violation of international law. No real room for leeway or interp…

What would you prefer? Israeli tanks blowing their way through families and bombing beirut to rubble to get at the Hezbolla terrorists? War was inevitable, the amazing actions of the mossad mitigated hundreds if not thousands of civilian casualties. What is your complaint, that they booby trapped the communications devices used exclusively by Hezbolla and not, i don't know, their kalashnikovs?

Don't hide behind technicalities of international law, tell me literally what else they could possibly have done with a better outcome. (please note in my world view, unlike many other people here, Israel rolling over and dying is not an acceptable solution)

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#388

Post by tomhow »

TimorousBestie wrote: post #212
SpitSalute wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they're saying it's inappropriate. It seems like they're saying this isn't the place to share your outrage.

Inappropriate and “this isn’t the place” are synonyms.

That's not really true. The point is that there's a difference between how you feel about a topic and how you express it. People will have different feelings and different intensities of feelings about a topic like this. That's normal, understandable and valid.

As dang has said elsewhere in this thread and in other comparable threads, before you comment about a topic like this, there needs to be some processing or metabolizing of those feelings. HN is a place for learning, not venting or battling. And there is much to learn about these topics by discussing them curiously. I certainly do, and I see others doing that too. That's a significant reason why I think it's important for us to make space for these discussions here. But if the threads are overwhelmed by people expressing extreme emotions, there's less to learn, other than that people on both sides are angry about this issue, which we already knew.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#389

Post by kyo_gisors »

uhhhd wrote: post #327
zug_zug wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if it's "legal" or not and by who's laws, but it certainly seems like terrorism to me (i.e. intentionally creating a state of terror). I think if Lebanon found a clever way to assassinate the top 45 military commanders in Israel the same people who are defending this wouldn't be calling it a "Legal act of war".

Terrorism targets civilians. So no, this isn't terrorism.

[dead]

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#390

Post by sreejithr »

underdeserver wrote: post #384

I am in awe of the opinions in this thread. Really. If Israel, unprovoked, randomly carried out this attack it would be one thing. But: 1. Hezbollah had been continuously, deliberately firing rockets at civilians since October 8th, 2023 displacing tens of thousands and killing multiple civilians including 12 children in a playground in Majdal Shams. 2. Hezbollah embeds itself and fires from within civilian population…

[flagged]
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