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Perl's decline was cultural

beatworm.co.uk

381–390 of 472 posts

Re: Perl's decline was cultural

#381
post #374

Spot on: the toxic culture around the language was a nail in its coffin. A classmate who introduced me to Linux in the early 2000’s was a Perl enthusiast who completely embodied the RTFM mindset. If someone didn’t already know something they were mocked. We ceased to be friends after a number of these interactions.

The cult of RTFM is so painful to interact with and off putting. The concept is sound, reading documentation is important. However simply responding to all questions with "RTFM" is not only not helpful but as often as not useless advice.

The documentation for something may not exist, may not be clear, or may just be wrong. Unless you specifically know the answer to a question is laid out clearly in the documentation, blindly telling someone to read the documentation is just being a dismissive asshole.

A much more productive and helpful response is "did you RTFM?" or "check section X of the manual". But those sorts of questions require the desire to not be a dismissive asshole.

The cult of RTFM has always been an impediment to Linux becoming more popular. When I was first learning Linux...almost thirty years ago now...the cult of RTFM nearly put me off the whole endeavor. I was asking for help with "Xwindows" on IRC and the responses were either RTFM (which I had done) or pedant diatribes about "it's X, not Xwindows newbie! It's not micro$oft!" Which was a super fun to deal with. The experience steeled my resolve to at least ask someone if they read the manual before assholishly telling them to do so.

Re: Perl's decline was cultural

#382
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having to pick up some perl now, and while I don't interact with the community, it surely _feels_ like it was written by wizards, for wizards. Obscure, non-intuitive oneliners, syntax that feels like it was intentionally written to be complicated, and a few other things that feel impossible to understand without reading the docs. (Before everyone jumps on me - yes, as a developer, I should be able to read documen…

It’s interesting to me how brains work. Perl has always “flowed” for me and made mostly intuitive sense. Every other language I’ve had to hack on to get something done is a struggle for me to fit into some rigid-feeling mental box. I understand I’m the weird one, but man I miss Perl being an acceptable language to pound out a quick program in between “bash script” and “real developer”.

I wrote a ton of Perl 5 and also found it very intuitive and powerful. I think the notion that Python is "more readable" is true, but also less useful of a metric than it would seem. Python is still gibberish to a new coder and requires training and experience to master. Perl requires somewhat more effort to acclimate to, but ultimately is much more expressive and much closer to real-world software engineering problems. Once the incremental effort is made, Perl is (or at least was) a better Python.

Re: Perl's decline was cultural

#383
This theory may only sound convincing if you ignore parts of history which don't fit. Which is pretty much all of them. RTFM-culture was the norm for all online computer-related communities until 00s. Nothing of this phenomenon is Perl-specific.

In late 80s and early 90s professional knowledge was way harder to get. Learning required significant devotion, and often was obtainable through experience only, and at the same time computer-related work wasn't as well-paid as it will become later. And had controversial social standing. Like, my brother said "It will hurt your chances with girls, bro!" when I told him I want to be a programmer, and with typical sibling-love added "This, and your ugly face of course".

RTFM emerged naturally with all of these: people paid with their time and social life for this knowledge, and wrote down what they found in manuals, most often for free, and you can't just bother to read them?

FWIW most BOFH types in my memory were C programmers, and early Linux UGs. Perlists in comparison were mild, and way more open (Perl community included biologists, linguists, and other non stereotypically computer people).

Perl decline was to some extent a cultural thing. But absolutely not the culture the author means. In Perl Larry Wall promoted a sort of expressive style of writing code where you can chose between several compiler-equivalent ways to implement logic: There is More Than One Way To Do It (aka Tim Toady) principle. The alleged reason is that the choice you make conveys some subtle nuances of your thinking which 1) gives you more comfort while coding, 2) gives potentially more information to someone who will read your code. This was outrageously contrary to the mainstream tendency of commoditization of software development (and software developers) which started to gain the steam at those times. Managers wanted (and I guess still want though to the date the idea mostly failed) THE one and only right way to code each task, peferrably with the only one language (with Java as the main contender), standard training programs, and certifications - all across all domains, and as a result replaceable and transferrable coders. Perl was clearly unfit for this perfect future with its proud selection of 4 or 5 implementations of OOP, and it hurt the language promotion a lot. And then there was disastrously optimistic declaration about soon-to-be major uprgade to Perl 6 which in reality will take 15+ years, all while lots of interesting things happening outside.

Re: Perl's decline was cultural

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why did it have to take over the world anyway? Because it was there, mostly. In a UNIX world where text was everything, it was well suited to quick and dirty solutions (that then morphed into long-term technical debt). Most alternatives at the time were not there by default as they either were commercial or otherwise didn't have any ecosystem to expand it's utility (like CPAN - without it Perl would likely be like…

Well that's not what I meant. Does everything has to have taking over the world as a goal? Perl still exists, I guess it's updated, why isn't that enough?

> Does everything has to have taking over the world as a goal? Perl still exists, I guess it's updated, why isn't that enough?

I never got the impression that perl's goal was to take over the world, but it was good at dealing with certain kinds of problems at a time in computing where it mattered, especially for one-offs.

The 1980s/1990s was full of many, many different data formats in a time before XML/JSON, often by long dead companies. Many a tech person was in a situation where "Oh fuck, how do I get this data out of some obscure database or other data format from some dead company that only ran on SCO UNIX or whatever into SAP/Oracle/etc" only to see somebody else already done it and made a CPAN module.

It also became an early CGI workhorse because, quite frankly, it was just there until much cleaner web-native languages started to show up.

Anecdotally, as part of some corporate lawsuits that involved stuff going back decades, a former colleague of mine recently had to grab ancient data for an insurance company from backup tapes that were last accessed in the 1980s (apparently getting readers for them was its own story). The only google results he could get for the data formats stored on them were literally usenet posts from the 1990s of people discussing working with it and...some CPAN modules somebody wrote to export it. He did chuckle when for the first time in his life he used tar without the -f switch, though.

Re: Perl's decline was cultural

#385

> None of this is literally serious, Exactly. I remember someone telling me to RTFM when I posted a question on IRC back in the 90s. Luckily, I explicitly asked if they were serious. They responded of course not-- they were kidding! Then they PM'd me with hidden link that had an image map of Perl wizards with whom I could schedule a free meeting and coffee to get started as a newbie. I was skeptical-- who cares about…

I can't tell if this is real or real funny.

Neither?

Re: Perl's decline was cultural

#386

> None of this is literally serious, Exactly. I remember someone telling me to RTFM when I posted a question on IRC back in the 90s. Luckily, I explicitly asked if they were serious. They responded of course not-- they were kidding! Then they PM'd me with hidden link that had an image map of Perl wizards with whom I could schedule a free meeting and coffee to get started as a newbie. I was skeptical-- who cares about…

I can't tell if this is real or real funny.

Looks like slashdot-era copypasta.

Re: Perl's decline was cultural

#387
Nobody will agree with this hot take, but I was around in the perl years, so maybe take this opinion with a grain of salt:

Perl wasn't arcane on purpose, the bar for being a programmer was just that much higher, born through necessity as we didn't have as much material to easily turn someone into a capable engineer, so to make anything work you had to -really- be motivated to learn, and that extended to the entire skill tree of things that happen before learning to code, like simply navigating the machine and being able to reach the realization that you needed to write something on your own.

Perl evolved to suit the needs of those that used it at the time, and it reflected their interests, skills, and abilities.

These days everything is so abstracted, so available, so easy, all of the material to learn literally anything is free and at your fingertips, programmers don't need to be that knowledgeable to identify a need and generate some code that mostly addresses that need.

Re: Perl's decline was cultural

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the purpose of optional type hinting is that you don't have to add it everywhere all at once , not that it doesn't have to be accurate. I guess you could split hairs and say "hint" doesn't imply perfect accuracy, but... adding a language feature that can lie really seems to have a lot of downsides vs upsides; whereas at least optional has obvious migration benefits. You could have optional type hints where th…

> And there are tools in Python that you can use to inspect and verify the accuracy. But those tools are also... optional... And if you start to apply them to a codebase where they weren't used, it can be very time-consuming to fix everything... How is that "bad" solution different from this "good" one? > You could have optional type hints where the runtime would still yell at you - maybe even from just an optional f…

If it's built in to the runtime you get a lot of potential benefits:

- you don't need to install additional packages

- you could have (because you don't want to hurt prod perf by checking all the time) dev-mode with warnings by default on execution and a prod-mode where they're ignored

- you can then have people in the dev environment catching things as they write/run/test their code vs only whenever they run the third party tool (which it seems a lot of people don't set up for even run-on-every-commit)

Let's flip the question around! What do you think are the benefits to making it easy to add misleading incorrect type hints?

Re: Perl's decline was cultural

#389

Of course it was cultural. This article covers it all in more detail, but I was coding a lot in this period of Perl's decline, and in hindsight it was all so obvious. I wrote a lot of Perl 3 and Perl 4 to date my experience. Rails was designed to be a luxury hand-holding experience using a language that was intended - as a design goal - to make programming fun. There was even for a while in the late 2000s the culture…

But could a different culture have actually changed Perl to be friendly and fun like Ruby? Without completely torpedoing compatibility with existing code and essentially creating a whole new language anyway?

Or did the language itself just get outdated and replaced? (there's nothing wrong with that! most things don't last forever!)

Re: Perl's decline was cultural

#390

Nobody will agree with this hot take, but I was around in the perl years, so maybe take this opinion with a grain of salt: Perl wasn't arcane on purpose, the bar for being a programmer was just that much higher, born through necessity as we didn't have as much material to easily turn someone into a capable engineer, so to make anything work you had to -really- be motivated to learn, and that extended to the entire sk…

There were programming envs that were easy to pick up in contemporary times. Hypercard is one that's often especially-fondly referenced as a non-traditional-programmer friendly example. Basic was much less arcane syntax-wise too. It's been a LONG time since I used Pascal but I also remember it being simpler to pick up.

But Perl specifically came out of a fairly arcane sysadmin-y corner of the world full of other already-arcane tools like awk and sed. And those were a decade older, but by the late 80s they weren't the only thing around to compare to.

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