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US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

thedailybeast.com

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Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#381

Post by dylan604 »

djoldman wrote: post #371
Leherenn wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument is that if you take the airline industry as whole (so not just airlines, but aircraft manufacturers, travel agencies, airports, all the concessions there, ...) it's still very profitable. And if you add the value to the customers, then it's through the roof. Maybe the reverse is more clear: if air travel didn't exist, it would have a huge economic impact; a clear proof of the value creation. Airl…

That's a false dichotomy. If airlines didn't exist, we would have found some other way to move things. Maybe trains, which would have been the better future by far.

What timeline are you in that we skipped trains and went to airplanes instead? We went to planes because trains were slow, and have a problem going across large bodies of water.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#382

Post by tomhow »

AaronAPU wrote: post #256
therobots927 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Please email us (hn@ycombinator.com) if you want moderator attention.

I can't work out what this comment means. I.e., is someone using information about you from elsewhere on the web to attack you on HN? If so, that's bad, but we need details/evidence, which is why it's best to email us.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#383

Post by mcphage »

krisoft wrote: post #252
mcphage wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People who don’t own or operate aircraft don’t need air traffic control. Also people who ride on airplanes.

Indirectly. Do you think electric substations should be also bought from tax money? Everyone who uses electricity need those too (indirectly). It is a clear service which certain companies and individuals need. Why don’t we let them pay for it. This is not some crazy fringe idea. This is how it works in Canada. Here are the current prices to operate a flight in or over Canada: https://www.navcanada.ca/en/customer-gui…

> Do you think electric substations should be also bought from tax money? Everyone who uses electricity need those too (indirectly).

I mean, yeah, I do.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#384

Post by mcphage »

ryandrake wrote: post #283
mcphage wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People who don’t own or operate aircraft don’t need air traffic control. Also people who ride on airplanes.

Also, people living under the paths of airplanes need ATC because they don't want planes colliding and crashing into their homes. It's a clear public service that benefits the public broadly. I personally wouldn't want to turn it over to profit-seeking, race-to-the-bottom private contractors.

> Also, people living under the paths of airplanes need ATC because they don't want planes colliding and crashing into their homes.

Also a very good point, especially given I have a brother-in-law who knows someone killed by a plane crashing into their home.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#385

Post by paulryanrogers »

pkulak wrote: post #369
paulryanrogers wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...the country voted, and they don’t want affordable healthcare. Can we say those voting for Trump in 2024 were saying they don't want affordable healthcare? There were many issues on the table and it wasn't a landslide.

Repealing Obamacare has been a _very explicit_ policy position of the Republican party for over a decade. They spent the entire last election telling anyone who would listen exactly what they would do, and now they are doing it. Yes, elections matter, and they have consequences. The midterm elections are in one year. That's the next chance the electorate has to change their mind. The thing is, the last time the Repub…

> My side is functioning democracy at this point, and that's what the Democrats are risking with this shutdown.

Which side is yours? Hopefully not the side fighting in n court to take back SNAP benefits already distributed to needy families.

How are the Democrats putting democracy at risk when they cannot control any branch of government? And all their attempts to appease Republicans end up with Republicans pushing further anyway?

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#386

Post by arkis22 »

arkis22 wrote: post #359
retrochameleon wrote: post #307

I'm a heavy gamer. I like lots of strategy games. Sometimes I look at our country like a strategy game: where we are investing resources, infrastructure planning and investment, active problems or threats and how they are being prioritized and handled, managing citizen happiness, etc. The last 10-20 years feel like a massive lost opportunity to invest in some of these improvements and forward-thinking planning. In th…

Most of my early 30 year old friends are very pessimistic about the future. I am pessimistic but less so. I think (and hope) that the republic will still be standing. But what I see and expect is that Trump will spend his time doing performative actions. He is narcissistic and he conflates the deference he receives when flying around the world negotiating trade deals with deference to the US. The reality is that tell…

*realign with China

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#387

Post by soupfordummies »

drivingmenuts wrote: post #375
xphos wrote: post #186

Remember the ATCs never recovered from the staffing shortage when Reagan fired them for striking on working conditions. The conditions have not improved the hiring has never caught up. Rates of alcholalism from work induced stress is extremely high and they have been showing up for work while not getting paid. Anyone who calls all public sector people lazy or entitled, remember ATCs are government workers do work ext…

I get the impression that some people in Washington think all government employees are lazy and entitled.

Who do you mean? The lazy and entitled government elected representatives?

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#388

Post by pkulak »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #385
pkulak wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Repealing Obamacare has been a _very explicit_ policy position of the Republican party for over a decade. They spent the entire last election telling anyone who would listen exactly what they would do, and now they are doing it. Yes, elections matter, and they have consequences. The midterm elections are in one year. That's the next chance the electorate has to change their mind. The thing is, the last time the Repub…

> My side is functioning democracy at this point, and that's what the Democrats are risking with this shutdown. Which side is yours? Hopefully not the side fighting in n court to take back SNAP benefits already distributed to needy families. How are the Democrats putting democracy at risk when they cannot control any branch of government? And all their attempts to appease Republicans end up with Republicans pushing f…

Turn on the news. The party agrees with me. I’ve been saying it since this folly was started, but they finally realized that you can’t negotiate with someone when your threat is their ideal outcome.

They want flights cancelled. They want people to starve. They want the FDA and the CDC shut down. They want chaos. More chaos is more excuse to take more control. It’s the classic fascist playbook. See : Reichstag fire.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#389

Post by walletdrainer »

CyberMacGyver wrote: post #379
walletdrainer wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s hardly a herculean task to replace most atc functions with software, detecting planes which are on collision course and instructing them how to avoid that being one of the easiest tasks. Of course you’d still sometimes need a human in the loop, but you could get by with much less staff

The classic Dunning–Kruger effect It’s always the people with no experience in a domain thinking any profession can be automated away except theirs.

I’m a pilot though, so fairly familiar with how ATC works.

In many places most day-to-day atc operations are already automated and the work is largely data-entry/answering service on the radio. We’re starting to get to the point where speech recognition is better than humans, so it would be perfectly fine to have humans communicate routine atc stuff with a robot.

Of course we’ll need humans available to react to emergencies.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#390

Post by amypetrik8 »

alemanek wrote: post #76
crooked-v wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand, ATC also covers military flights in the US, which gives a pretty good national security reason to have central control over it... at least when a particular party isn't intentionally trying to destroy it along with various other government functions.

I think the argument is more that ATC, people and equipment needed, should be funded via use fees. This ensures that the system is self sustaining. Also as demand increases then revenue to run the system would also increase.

I agree - a good example is bridges and bridge tolls. Maybe a lot of people in NYC have crossed the verrazano bridge. "see, most of us have crossed it, I don't see why taxes shouldn't pay for it". The counterexample would be the trucking company, that once taxes pay for it and not tolls, runs convoys of tractor trailers up and down the bridge, rapidly accelerating wear & tear - had they paid on a toll basis they'd be paying their fare share vs someone who crossed in one time 8 years ago.
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