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Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

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Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#381

Post by immibis »

chrisco255 wrote: post #187
itopaloglu83 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody is a fan of free access and capital markets, until a foreign entity purchases something of importance. It’s a continuation of recent trends and closing markets. Nobody in their sane mind would allow a company like ASML or the likes to be purchased by competitors. But the irony is that when a non-European entity were to do something like this, e.g. nationalize their oil or mining etc. industry or a firm, the…

It's not a "free market" to allow a foreign communist country to own or control your companies or resources, whether strategic or not. The entire arrangement is governed by diplomacy between two states. FWIW, it never has been the case that everyone was a fan of "the world is flat" theory of capital and labor markets.

Actually that is the free market

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#382

Post by adrian_b »

motorest wrote: post #289
itopaloglu83 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said it that way because I don’t like the hypocrisies in general, and I said European because the comment I responded to combined Dutch and European markets into one. It would be foolish to sell off a great value like ASML or others that adds incredible value. But one should also not get mad when other countries do it, because they see their industries as valuable things as well. Our markets are just getting more c…

> It would be foolish to sell off a great value like ASML or others that adds incredible value. But one should also not get mad when other countries do it, because they see their industries as valuable things as well. This reads like a straw man argument. No one gets mad when other countries do it. At most, you see complains of protectionism being unilaterally imposed while benefitting from your competitor's openness…

China has the right to protest, because nowadays the Chinese companies are not "subjected to the same type of treatment".

There is a huge difference between establishing from the beginning clear rules that set limits to foreign investment, like in China, and changing the rules afterwards, after luring foreign investors, and then taking ownership of their assets, like for Tik Tok and Nexperia.

Obviously I agree that USA and the EU have acted very foolishly in the past by exporting technology to China (foolishly for the national interests, while a few have been greatly enriched by this), but at least they followed consistent policies, not like now, when they change the rules of the game whenever they see that they are the losers.

Philips Semiconductors should have never been sold and become non-Dutch, but if they have been so stupid as to do this, they should assume their responsibility and finance the creation of a new European semiconductor device manufacturer, to ensure the independence of hostile entities.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#383

Post by lmm »

philosopher1234 wrote: post #321
lmm wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporate internal markets are well-known as non-free, and when a sufficiently large company is picking and choosing winners in a national economy that's also not a free market.

I think this concept is an exercise in fantasy. There’s simply no such thing as a free market. Why we single out subsidy as non free is arbitrary. What activities constitute legitimate free market behavior? There’s no actual logically sound distinction. The real distinction is “what we do is free market and what our opponents do is not”

> There’s simply no such thing as a free market. Why we single out subsidy as non free is arbitrary. What activities constitute legitimate free market behavior? There’s no actual logically sound distinction.

Sounds like a nirvana fallacy. Yes, nowhere has a perfectly free market, just as nowhere has a perfectly corruptionless justice system and railroad tracks are never perfectly parallel. But there are definitely markets that are less free than others and actions that distort markets further, and it's right to call those out.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#384

Post by consumer451 »

immibis wrote: post #376
consumer451 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do not appear to be very smart as a country.

It's not a country - it's a collection of individual billionaires. Each billionaire involved in these kinds of deals gets richer, and has no reason to care about anyone else.

Yes, but we’ve apparently chosen to run our country in such a way.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#385

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

devnullbrain wrote: post #208
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European companies have had massive investments in China for decades now. Many people in the West have no idea what's going on in China. Western brands and investments are all over the place. Half the cars on the streets used to be European or American (and that has only recently changed, due to the rise of EVs). Yet Europeans and Americans often complain, "Why can't Western companies operate in China?" Excuse me?

China's rules, present and historical, on joint ventures and banned investment sectors seem like a conspicuous omission in your comment.

Take a look at DeHo40's comment below. They cover it well.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#386

Post by tick_tock_tick »

fwipsy wrote: post #139
dragonelite wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has immense pressure on the dutch government, given their control over ASML . Its US big tech and semi design studios that determines who will need to buy EUV from ASML. Given ASML is not allowed to do business with China, Russia etc.

You could just add easily argue that the Dutch government has immense leverage over the US, since ASML controls the leading edge fab technology that underpins Nvidia etc. It seems more to me like a highly profitable partnership that neither side can credibly threaten to withdraw from.

> You could just add easily argue that the Dutch government has immense leverage over the US, since ASML controls the

Not really since the USA basically controls ASML. That's not even counting the USA's control over most of Europe especially the Netherlands.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#387

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

like_any_other wrote: post #172
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European companies have had massive investments in China for decades now. Many people in the West have no idea what's going on in China. Western brands and investments are all over the place. Half the cars on the streets used to be European or American (and that has only recently changed, due to the rise of EVs). Yet Europeans and Americans often complain, "Why can't Western companies operate in China?" Excuse me?

The question was, emphasis mine: "which firms in China are controlled by European entities?" Western brands have investments , but are required by law to have a local partner, that learns the trade and eventually copies the product: China bars foreign companies from participating on their own in many industries, but in some of those industries foreign companies can participate only by forming a joint venture with a C…

> And more than half the phones in Europe or America are Asian - what's your point?

Actually, the US banned the most successful Chinese phone company the second it started gaining market share. At the time, it was the largest phone brand in Europe.

But my point is that European and American companies can and do invest and do business in China, on a massive scale.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#388

Post by eunos »

consumer451 wrote: post #343
satvikpendem wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And China doesn't (didn't?) allow foreign companies to operate in China without a local partner at all Tesla was the first to buck this trend.

The next question is: why did China give Tesla this unprecedented deal? The answer I heard at the time was to get local suppliers and workforce up to Tesla standards. It appears to have worked out for China quite nicely.

Catfish effect. Ensure local players just don't become welfare queen mooching subsidy and incentives from govt both local and national.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#389

Post by [deleted] »

vincentkriek wrote: post #335
magicalhippo wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Netherlands AND Holland? Isn't that the same place? Holland is part of the Netherlands. Not unlike how say Texas is part of the United States. So in that regard the statement was redundant, yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland

And ASML is not in Holland, nor is Nexperia or ASMI. I can't think of any semiconductor business in "Holland".

[deleted]

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#390

Post by bryanrasmussen »

motorest wrote: post #359
globalnode wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

free for me but not for thee

> free for me but not for thee That's rich, coming from a country which outright bands foreign corporations from even operating within their borders, and those who they allow have to operate through a state-controlled corporate minder.

>That's rich, coming from a country

What country do you know Globalnode is coming from? Just interested in the high level of assurance.

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