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Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

pcgamer.com

381–390 of 621 posts

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#381

What's stopping a large, profitable company like Valve from starting its own payment processor? Surely the technology part of it can't be an impossible hurdle.

This entire situation is badly misunderstood all over the Internet. As the article itself states, alternative payment processors that are used primarily for adult content already exist. CC Bill was the example given. And they accept Visa and Mastercard. They're used by websites with plenty of explicit adult content, including simulated rape, incest, and "teen" porn. It isn't Visa and Mastercard forbidding this. In this case, it's Stripe, though it seems likely they're doing it because of pressure from Mastercard, which in turn received pressure targeting these particular platforms from some advocacy group in Australia. But itch.io and Stream could still use CC Bill, and customers would still be able to pay with Visa and Mastercard.

The reason mainstream websites don't use CC Bill and it is used almost exclusively for porn, is because they charge a lot more than Stripe and the more mainstream payment processors do. There isn't really a ban on this kind of material, provided the platform hosting it is willing to use alternative processors, so much as a price increase.

Even with Pornhub and OnlyFans debacles, they never hosted content that can't be found elsewhere on sites that allow you to pay with Visa and Mastercard. The reason those platforms were targeted was never the content itself, but non-compliance with rules that professional studios have always had to abide by requiring they keep copies of government-issued ID of all performers and provide those to any viewer who asks for it, in order to be able to prove they aren't accidentally hosting content with children or otherwise non-consenting performers.

Ultimately, if a website wants to host content with a guy taking a shit on his twin underage daughters, they can do that, and you can pay for it with Visa and Mastercard, as long as they use something like CC Bill for processing and they keep adequate records enabling them to prove the "underage" characters and not actually played by underage performers, and the people involved aren't actually related. Or, maybe more precisely, you can have real twins in a scene together, but you're then limited by byzantine country-by-country laws I have no personal knowledge of regarding what they are and are not allowed to do together that counts as sex.

The Internet is where nuance goes to die, so this all gets distilled down to "Visa and Mastercard don't allow you to buy porn" by the time most people find out about any of it.

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they don’t like processing payments for pornography or adult content (including games) Pornography and adult content is fine—the real issue is that gaming storefronts refuse to moderate their platforms for child pornography and rape material and would rather kill their entire NSFW catalog, all while painting themselves as the victims. > If they don’t like processing payments for pornography or adult content (inc…

The content is legal, and therefore your entire argument is irrelevant, as is your attempt to personify corporations. The whole point of being an adult is understanding that your personal tastes aren’t a mandate on others to comply for your comfort; in other words, if you dislike legal content, your sole recourse is to simply not engage with that content. Go proselytize elsewhere.

> The content is legal

It's not. Look up the PROTECT Act of 2003. It's sad that we live in a world where payment processors of all things have to do the government's job.

You dislike MasterCard's and Visa's actually legal actions, your sole recourse is simply not to engage with them. Best of luck!

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument from free speech is that government should not be allowed to censor, regardless of the mechanism. Payment processors currently offer that mechanism.

If the government were coercing Mastercard into censorship, that would be a free speech issue. But absent state pressure, a private company choosing not to do business with certain content isn’t censorship in the constitutional sense. That’s just market behavior. If you want to challenge the influence of financial infrastructure on speech, that’s a separate (and valid) policy debate but it’s not a First Amendment vio…

Your distinction is correct as far as it goes, but there is a third observation that must also be taken into account, which is that the tidy division of economic, social, and political matters into private and public domains is uninteresting from the perspective of power. An example of this is how gov'ts, constrained by law, cannot legally engage in widespread surveillance, have found what is morally a loophole by involving private companies who are able to do so more freely. Or, for example, the policing of certain ideas on privately-owned social media which have become de facto public forums. It is completely uninteresting to claim that you aren't forced to use these forums or that you can start your own as jejune free market extremists like to claim. A little intellectual maturity will make plainly obvious why that is the case.

Now, I happen to think that, pace Dershowitz, adult content does not fall within the scope of free speech. The entire purpose of free speech is to allow the truth to be to expressed. Free speech takes an attitude of pragmatic permissiveness toward certain varieties of what are objectively bad speech as the price for that to happen. It's a choice that was made in American political history, but even here, the bounds of what is legally permitted under free speech have not remained fixed for various reasons.

Adult content is nowhere in the vicinity of this notion of free speech, and certainly not its moral purposes. There is no right to produce or to view adult content. There is no right to anything that is objectively unethical, and both the production and consumption of such content is unethical. Gov'ts can choose to take a permissive stance toward such activity for prudential reasons (for example, historically, while prostitution was categorically condemned on moral grounds, gov'ts took a permissive attitude in some respects, because they felt that banning it would cause still greater problems), but they have the authority to criminalize it.

So, given that it isn't a free speech issue, I have no problem, in a free speech context, with private companies banning such content from their platforms or from being the subject of transactions passing through their systems.

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#384
post #351

So... Mastercard's statement is very clear: > Put simply, we allow all lawful purchases on our network. But their "Rule 5.12.7" is... not so clear: > A Merchant must not submit to its Acquirer, and a Customer must not submit to the Interchange System, any Transaction that is illegal, or in the sole discretion of the Corporation, may damage the goodwill of the Corporation or reflect negatively on the Marks. Well, whic…

> Well, which one is it now?

Obviously the more complicated option with arbitrary criteria

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't I still just run the .exe of the game? Or DRM nightmares?

All (most?) Steam games have a very simple DRM that is extremely easy to bypass, and you can find examples on github. However, a lot of games add their own DRM and/or protection scheme that complicates things. EDIT: technically there are two distinct component: the actual DRM, called steamstub, and the steamwork library, that does not work without steam but it is not considered drm. Both can be easily bypassed/emulat…

I see, but there is Steam DRM there. So, I guess as the other commenter was alluding to, if Steam goes belly up so does your collection, regardless of the dev studio's intention (Or atleast, locked behind a DRM bypass).

I understood this in terms of Live Service games, but did not consider Steam's ability to shut down their own platform and kill my locally installed single player games with it (Again, I'm seeing its possible and seems easy to bypass usually, but the principle of the matter)

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#387
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First Amendment applies to the _government_, not private entities.

In age of megacorps, this is a great weakness of this right.

We need to break them up solely based on size - if they’re too big on revenue or profit or market cap or employees, break them up. Or at least huge taxes on the largest companies and lower taxes on small ones. Market cap about 500B? Here’s an additional 25% tax on profits. Above 1T? Make that 50%.

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#388
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot think of anything worse than an official post office email I have to maintain. Do you not remember how many government sites would simply shut down after business hours because they couldn't figure out how to do on-call? Have you ever used US-treasury direct? This site would be slow, the code base would be unmaintained, it'd get enormous amounts of spam you have to sort through to get some important tax docu…

My local city runs a water heater rental company. It provides water heaters more or less at cost to residents because we have exceptionally hard water here and they need to be replaced every ten years or so. It's a well run, valuable public program, and its cost is minimal. The US Digital Service made a number of good web services for the US federal government while it lasted. They didn't close at night. There are ma…

Largely opinion here, but the glaring issue with many modern governments is that they don't do. They get some consultants to come in, make some requirements, then shop for a contractor. IMO, governments should do a lot more themselves, should own infrastructure/utilities outright & ongoingly.

Particularly hard in today's climate where so so many people are empowered to say no, or to come in and add their own pet complications/expenses to a project. The meta-governance of staying to mission, to relentlessly caring about value optimization (in the pursuit of public good) is fraught with failure modes. Yet still it feels vastly less dangerous and expensive than shopping the work out, than governments perpetually seeking to do things it itself doesn't know much about & can't do.

We've had decades of nihilism that sees this juncture of difficulty & says: maybe we shouldn't have a government. But some day, I hope, maybe, possibly, we'll redisocver the spirit of makers and doers, and the eternal jibing critically can give way to a some will & make happen.

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the kind of problem that Bitcoin was designed to solve.

Isn't Bitcoin impractical for these sorts of transactions (slow, high fees, no privacy, etc)? People always say Bitcoin was designed to solve this sort of thing but whenever I've looked into it it's been fairly impractical for use in most day-to-day transactions.

Bitcoin is so much faster than a credit card transaction that it's not even close. A lightning transaction is near instant, regular bitcoin transfers take in the order of 10 minutes. Credit card transactions take weeks before you get the money, and after that the money can be yoinked back for a multitude of reasons beyond your control as a merchant. The fees are often lower, too. Bitcoiners are for some reason opposed to solving that last issue (no privacy) despite the technology existing in monero. NIH syndrome, I guess.

The real unsolved issue for cryptocurrency is between chair and keyboard. People make mistakes, people are afraid of being robbed. Your average person does not want to be their own bank. You can have a bank or payment processor manage your money for you, but then we're back to the regulated world where Visa and Mastercard can determine what games you're allowed to buy.

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the kind of problem that Bitcoin was designed to solve.

Isn't Bitcoin impractical for these sorts of transactions (slow, high fees, no privacy, etc)? People always say Bitcoin was designed to solve this sort of thing but whenever I've looked into it it's been fairly impractical for use in most day-to-day transactions.

You will want to look into Lightning which fixes that issue.
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