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Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

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Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#381

Post by GuinansEyebrows »

pieds wrote: post #204
cshimmin wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So… your argument is that it’s not counterculture unless it’s mainstream culture? And that one should only credit derivative works once they become mainstream, rather than the original inspiring works because they were too obscure? I don’t think anyone is trying to “gotcha” you. You’ve just got a bad take.

Counterculture is a culture that is counter to the mainstream culture. If a culture is happy on its own, it is more of just a subculture. Cyberpunk itself features counterculture not just subculture, but is also inspired by the counterculture at the time. Cyberpunk doesn't randomly contain megacorporations, harsh environments and loneliness but it reflects the worst-case scenario for the ideals at the time. The grey…

> Japan doesn't really do counterculture.

i dunno. some of the most influential d-beat/crust bands of all time are from japan (d-clone, disclose, gauze, gallhammer, gism, death side... that's barely scratching the surface of bands that are/were actively countercultural).

it may not always take the same form, but anywhere you find big cities, you'll find some form of countercultural punk movement because the economy is big enough to support people at the fringes (even if you just work as a bartender or whatever).

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#382

Post by MonkeyClub »

daremon wrote: post #313
ilamont wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. What a great story. An in translation, no less. The Greek translator must have been very talented. (Kind of curious now ... were the other translated editions in non-English languages as powerful? Do readers of science fiction in other languages seek out works by specific translators or publishers known to have great translations?)

He really tried IMO. Actually I wrote this story to him, the translator of the Greek edition when I happened to find him on Facebook. He told me he felt he didn't do justice to the original work and always felt a bit bad.

Γεια σου, πατριώτη! (Hello, compariot!)

I think I read the same text in a 1996 reprint some years later, in 1999 - coincidentally also during my last year of highschool with impending doom^Wexams afoot.

Definitely mind-expanding, and helped shape my early cyberpunk tastes, though it didn't get me hitched :)

I do think the translation was excellent, he definitely must have put hard work and passion into it!

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#383

Post by GuinansEyebrows »

throwpoaster wrote: post #16
keiferski wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyberpunk was essentially a sub-type of counterculture, and counterculture itself has pretty much been dead for a couple decades now. When the hackers are primarily interested in VC funds, the cryptocurrency ethos overtaken by the finance industry, and the goal of every artist to “make it” as a creator, there’s basically no room for culture that explicitly wants to operate outside the system. You could probably tie t…

Another reading is that there is no more counterculture because it won and became the culture.

arguably, no. counterculture ceases to exist when it becomes dominant culture, but it's not that "it won" - countercultural concepts are either adopted into mainstream culture through a widespread genuine desire for change (no longer countercultural, simply cultural), or they're vapidly recuperated (see chain stores like Hot Topic or Zumiez, if you're in the US) into commodity goods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recuperation_(politics)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Society_of_the_Spectacle

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#384

Post by GuinansEyebrows »

ecocentrik wrote: post #20

Of all the cyberpunk authors, Gibson, while one of the first, is probably the least interesting. Stephenson and Sterling are better writers and explore more complex ideas. Gibson has the occasional shadow of an idea that he explores with a few one dimensional characters. That said, I liked "Virtual Light". Doctorow's late cyberpunk novels like "Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom" are also very good.

comparing stephenson and gibson is interesting - gibson basically does no story-based exposition in a lot of his work, and stephenson can't help but dig into the nitty gritty details that support the world-building and story development to an almost obnoxious (but informative!) degree.

i used to really enjoy Stephenson (especially having not gone to college- i feel like i was exposed to some interesting ideas through his writing that i might not have otherwise).

now that i'm a bit older, i find him to be kind of a know-it-all blowhard, especially in light of his extremely-lucrative work with what are basically the precursors to the giant horrible corporations he wrote about so disparagingly.

i still enjoy snow crash, and i want to re-read cryptonomicon and anathem, but it's really hard to weigh the message he used to send against his more recent work in meatspace.

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#385

Post by jrm4 »

fitsumbelay wrote: post #251
roughly wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gibson is such a unique sci-fi author because his fundamental interest is fashion (he’s said this himself) - his worlds are beautiful, but completely skin deep, and he’s a master of using one word or phrase to evoke an entire world or backstory, but you scratch at what he’s written and it’s all vibes. Bruce Sterling is similar, although maybe less of a fashion native - they’re both looking at people and at trends and…

Really interesting, because his writing kinda gives you that wide-T sense, it's like the way Wu Tang rapped -- especially Raekwon, and to a lesser extend Ghostface -- where they avalanche you with all of these richly visualized and highly contrasted scenarios of this that and the other without ever go too deeply into any of them. Really does leave you awash in a lot of flavorful vibes and in 1991/1992 when I wasn't d…

This is the best 'literary' comparison I have ever seen on this site. Since we're in hip-hop for a bit, I gotta point to the way less famous Camp Lo: They do this, but instead of kung-fu + hood drug dealing; they're more in the space of 70's Blaxploitation + Heist films with a dash of Neuromancer/Blade Runner.

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#386

Post by mercer »

Kon5ole wrote: post #364
daremon wrote: post #107

I had the opposite experience with Neuromancer. I read it too many times! Sorry for the long post (translated by GPT as it was originally in Greek). In September 1993, I started my final year of high school in Greece, aiming to study Computer Science. A girl I barely knew heard I was into computers and handed me Neuromancer, the 1989 Greek edition. I still have it. I already loved science fiction, though my reading h…

>To this day, I still re-read it every year or two, and it never loses its magic. And I can still describe what's happening on any given page although this has faded a lot. That's interesting! I have a similar experience but for the opposite reason. I like the book and have enjoyed reading it several times, and listened to the audiobook just before the pandemic. I know I like it and consider it to be a good book, but…

I have the same experience, but with Snow Crash...

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#387

Post by gknoy »

Kon5ole wrote: post #364
daremon wrote: post #107

I had the opposite experience with Neuromancer. I read it too many times! Sorry for the long post (translated by GPT as it was originally in Greek). In September 1993, I started my final year of high school in Greece, aiming to study Computer Science. A girl I barely knew heard I was into computers and handed me Neuromancer, the 1989 Greek edition. I still have it. I already loved science fiction, though my reading h…

>To this day, I still re-read it every year or two, and it never loses its magic. And I can still describe what's happening on any given page although this has faded a lot. That's interesting! I have a similar experience but for the opposite reason. I like the book and have enjoyed reading it several times, and listened to the audiobook just before the pandemic. I know I like it and consider it to be a good book, but…

> every time it's like I'm reading it for the first time. I can only remember thew "mood" so to speak,

I am like this with a lot of books. I'll remember a very high level overview ("The Historian is about a modern day hunt for Dracula, and it's really cool, and I liked how the story was told, but I can't remember why or any of what happened."), but can't remember much about plot details.

It makes re-reading things fun, but also is frustrating because I can't explain why something was good, and I also remember just enough that plot twists don't surprise me the second time. It also means that I completely forget about the "bad" parts of the book, or the parts that didn't resonate with me.

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#388

Post by munksbeer »

dontlaugh wrote: post #181
koverstreet wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for Ian M. Banks, which is about spaceships :)

That’s also about people. And communism. Only some of the people in the series are space ships.

Good points. His stories frequently (or always?) involve conflict. You can take it that he believes that when sentience is involved, conflict is unavoidable, regardless of how advanced that sentience becomes.

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#389

Post by psychoslave »

pieds wrote: post #65
makeitdouble wrote: post #7

Overall an interesting read. To go straight to the nitpicks: > The Matrix Trilogy, Ghost in the Shell, [...]. Except Gibson did it first. Ghost in the Shell started publication around 1989, but it's author was writing cyberpunk in 1985 (Appleseed), with already many of the themes approached in it. 1985 is a tad later than Gibson's Neuromamcer, but given the timeline to start a series with the level of details Masamun…

Gibson was obviously very inspired by Japan. The Matrix was also in part directly inspired by Ghost in the Shell, even creating The Animatrix at the same time. But Ghost in the Shell and Blade Runner was told from the inside. It is about the authorities chasing down rouge elements. Neuromancer and The Matrix is from the perspective of the outsiders. Like someone else said in the comments here, cyberpunk is countercul…

"my country counterculture is so much better" could be ridiculously funny if it wasn't so sad to consider a presumably intelligent adult could utter it in complete sincerity.

Producing more in quantity, with far biggest allocated budget, and even better quality on everything that can be measured at surface level, all that is no guarantee to reach a work that is deeper in spirit.

Those who don't question what's wrong in themselves due specifically to the culture they were fed with are not on the path to elude its sway.

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#390

Post by johngossman »

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #302
johngossman wrote: post #118

Somebody really should mention John Brunner. His "Stand on Zanzibar" and "The Sheep Look Up" predate Gibson and Sterling by a decade and both those authors have cited his influence on their works. I love Neuromancer but Zanzibar is also brilliant.

Stand on Zanzibar is often mentioned for it's amazing predictions, but if you actually read it I would be amazed if you didn't think it was crap.

You should be amazed then. It's brilliant.
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