Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

craigmod.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

381–390 of 512 posts

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#381

Post by MPSFounder »

SoftTalker wrote: post #231
cedws wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My home country, the UK, has already been through this cultural erosion which is why I respect Japan's right to defend its own. London in particular has become a place for everybody and at the same time for nobody. It's a city of people of different values and wavelengths with very little shared strata compared with Tokyo.

Funny to see this sentiment here but in the USA if a conservative-leaning politician talks about "preserving our culture" or saying that immigrants should "assimilate" they are accused of being a code-word (or even an overt) racist.

Completely different. American culture is immigrant centric. I am an American, and I refuse the biblical indoctrination that some wish would represent "our" culture. Why should conservatives get to dictate what America's culture is? As far as I am concerned, we are a nation of immigrants, and no one should assimilate to certain ideas. In particular, because these ideas can be weaponized. The Church can mangle with the state, because America is mostly evangelical. Free speech can exclude criticism of foreign nations (like Isra-l), because America's most affluent are Jews. Services can be refused on the basis of one's romantic inclinations. Some people end up as more free than others. So I reject this culture claim that you are defending and do not accept that these conservatives have America's best interests in their heart. They are merely choosing the rhetoric that resonates most with lower classes (as history has taught us is a strategy that worked with peasants in the days of yore), because a critique of upper classes or billionaires or those that profit from our toil is them biting the hand that feeds them.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#382

Post by pezezin »

Pooge wrote: post #33
bryanlarsen wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And a few more of the seedier bars just have a “no foreigners” sign out front. Those have existed long before tourism to Japan became common. Those signs were there when the vast majority of foreigners in Japan were English teachers and soldiers. Many tabehodai (all-you-can-eat) and most nomihodai (all-you-can-drink) places had them.

> nomihodai I think this is for economic/profit reasons. I am not a strong drinker at all but I can drink 4-5 [X] sour but my Japanese friends were already well intoxicated with 1 or 2 beers ...

Then your friends are quite weak, because I know plenty of Japanese people who drink like sponges... my GF among them, she is your average short Japanese lady and yet she can drink twice as much a me o_O

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#383

Post by jacobgkau »

tmtvl wrote: post #294
patrickscoleman wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even as a foreigner who speaks Japanese, I frequently got the "we're closed" and crossing the hands in an X response while locals continued eating. Sometime they'd laugh and I'd hear "gaijin" (rude slang for foreigner) as I walked out. But plenty of places were super warm and friendly after the initial apprehension if you speak Japanese and read some kanji. Worth the effort!

If I remember correctly, gaijin is just how you say 'foreigner' in standard Japanese. The rude slang is jingai. And I also have the experience of people really appreciating it if you actually speak and read Japanese. Which makes sense, I can easily imagine it being a relief to find that you can just speak with someone normally instead of having to struggle with this absolutely bonkers weird language that one may be o…

> If I remember correctly, gaijin is just how you say 'foreigner' in standard Japanese.

I think this depends on tone. It is a literal translation, but I don't think you have to call someone non-human for it to be rude.

> I can imagine that people in, say, the United States wouldn't be very happy if I went around and only spoke Dutch.

We do have a large amount of people (and an increasing number of businesses) who think it's fine to only speak Spanish.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#384

Post by golemiprague »

decimalenough wrote: post #348
toephu2 wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, this happens to any melting pot city (Paris, New York, LA, San Francisco, etc). The downside of multiculturalism is these places become low-trust societies. Do you dare leave your bike outside unlocked in these cities?

Bicycle theft is endemic in Japan as well. Of course, being Japan, they also have a compulsory bike registration scheme and police can and do (not-so-)randomly stop people on the street to check that they're not riding stolen bikes.

[dead]

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#386

Post by jacobgkau »

rectang wrote: post #360
jacobgkau wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ones who are going to heed your advice to minimize their existence are not the ones who need to hear it, generally. That mentality just punishes thoughtful people and will not reach the vast majority of the ones you believe are a problem.

Living an examined life and choosing actions in tune with your conscience is its own reward, not self-denial. Staying home is not the only alternative to participating in the most destructive acts of overtourism.

I understand you're not the same person as the one who started your side of this argument, but you can't just jump from "there's not really an ethical way to be a tourist in a foreign country" to "I was only talking about overtourism, stop being extreme."

If self-denial is rewarding to you, that's your business. You don't decide with vague statements what's rewarding to others.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#388

Post by timr »

the_af wrote: post #350
timr wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyway, I disagree with you: Japan is still a miracle in terms of the quality and service you get for the money. I saw this many times over. I assume you mean "relative to other places" here, and in that sense, I agree. Japan is not yet entirely Epcot Center. > Perhaps not in Kyoto, or in the most touristed areas of Tokyo. Or in whatever random place got featured in some anime, or whatnot. Right, exactly. Except th…

So is the advice "do not visit Japan, learn about it from books and the internet"? Or just pretend it doesn't exist? Maybe do the same with all other countries? The Japanese in turn do a lot of tourism abroad, to the point the "Japanese tourist" is as much a stereotype as the American one. Should they stay put and not leave their home towns?

It's pretty amazing that you've managed to both take the least-charitable interpretation of my comment, and apply a dated stereotype of Japanese people in one post. So:

1) There is a whole spectrum of alternatives between "do not go" and "go take selfies in the same TikTok dead zones as everyone else, while drinking overpriced matcha boba tea and eating potato spiral on a stick from a Mario kart." Perhaps do something else?

2) "Japanese tourists" haven't been going much of anywhere with the yen near all-time lows to western currencies. Setting that aside, it's been a few decades since the stereotype you're invoking was anything close to real.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#389

Post by Jach »

Findecanor wrote: post #311
lovich wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, that’s just discrimination. It’s bad when anyone does it

It shouldn't be taken personally. It just means that they don't speak English, don't have an English menu, and are not staffed enough to be able to devote the time for understanding you.

Indeed. And it's not always final... I've not had it ever happen to me at a place that serves food, but I also generally only hear about it happening at bars/night clubs and I don't drink so never had a reason to visit one. I suspect a lot might change their stance if you just say you speak Japanese... it's not like you need to know a lot for basic food ordering anyway. The closest related experience I did have was one time I was with a friend taking him to an outdoor idol concert, a guy saw us coming and came up trying to shoo us back / something about no entry, but I just told him in Japanese that I have a ticket and the QR code was already ready to go on my phone. Immediately it's "right this way".

I also remain convinced most of the anti-foreigner tourism sentiment is anti-Chinese tourism sentiment. For westerners who can behave, it's still a great place to visit. (Though skipping Kyoto wouldn't be a bad idea.)

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#390

Post by jacobgkau »

dfxm12 wrote: post #272
SoftTalker wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny to see this sentiment here but in the USA if a conservative-leaning politician talks about "preserving our culture" or saying that immigrants should "assimilate" they are accused of being a code-word (or even an overt) racist.

US conservatives get no benefit of the doubt thanks to years of racism and racist policy. It is clear that they are reactionaries looking to codify white supremacy. However, American culture has moved on (a lot) from that though. For several generations, it has been described as a "melting pot" or understood through the lens of The New Colossus mounted on the Statue of Liberty.

The question is, do you think it's fine for the same line of "Japanese supremacy" thought to apply in Japan, and if so, why do you think it's different?
Post reply on HN