Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

proton.me

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

381–390 of 665 posts

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#381

Post by surgical_fire »

JimDabell wrote: post #356
surgical_fire wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Was that not the sort of rationale Microsoft used to defend its IE shenanigans back in the day? It was considered to be a violation of antitrust laws then. I don't think Apple would be off the hook now. Especially considering how much more ubiquitous smartphones…

Microsoft had >90% of the desktop computer market share back then. Apple has <30% of the smartphone market share now.

While I am not a specialist on the matter, I don't think Antitrust regulations have anything to do with market share.

It's whether you are engaging in anticompetitive behavior or not.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#382

Post by whyoh »

ronsor wrote: post #48
Workaccount2 wrote: post #39

I don't think any big tech company has ever done anything as evil and predatory as Apple walling off iMessage, giving the impression that Apple phones were high technology, and interacting with peasant androids is what made group chats fragment and pictures and videos look like trash. Few things are more enraging than people being left out of chats with friends and family because they didn't bend over for Apple. Even…

> - Yes, I know no one outside the US uses iMessage. Yes, people in the EU use WhatsApp, by Meta & Zuckerberg , and from what I've seen, often act as if that is some sort of mark of superiority.

>often act as if that is some sort of mark of superiority

Well, you could argue that it's morally superior to be reachable by everyone, regardless of what brand of phone they use.

The ability to install a 3rd party messaging app also shows some technical skill.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#383

Post by sham1 »

msgodel wrote: post #141
_benton wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many phones which let you flash your own OS and use with complete control. Please just purchase one of those and stop trying to interfere with my ability to purchase a phone that I want.

Lol. It's legitimately easier to just buy a UMPC with an LTE card and use VOIP than do that. That's how bad the situation is at this point. I say this as someone who gets paid to work on open source and used PostMarketOS on my primary cell phone for years. Even technical people really only have two options right now.

Out of genuine curiosity since you mentioned UMPCs, what would be a good UMPC with LTE module support? I've looked into things like the various GPD Pocket devices, but I'm wondering if any of the other alternatives are any good.

And of course, recommendations for LTE modules would be appreciated. Ideally built in, but external modules are also good, all they really need is linux support.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#384

Post by fsflover »

_benton wrote: post #125
spogbiper wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if all you want is for your apps to come from Apple's store and your payments to go through Apple's system, you would simply continue to use only those options and allowing other people to have other options would not impact you. what you actually want is to force all developers to use Apple's distribution and payment systems, so that you can have every app and service from any provider delivered via your chosen mech…

Developers are not forced into using Apple's distribution and payment systems because there are a multitude of other competing devices (with a higher market share mind you) they can and do develop for. If users and developers prefer other systems they can simply use those.

> multitude of other competing devices

You mean, the Google system that collects 20 times more telemetry than the iPhones? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#385

Post by solarexplorer »

DidYaWipe wrote: post #372
dcow wrote: post #270

> Companies that monetize user data in exchange for “free” services that abuse your privacy aren’t affected by this [the app store tax], as they don’t process payments through the App Store. However, privacy-first companies that monetize through subscriptions are disproportionately hit by this fee, putting a major barrier toward the adoption of privacy-first business models. Huh. I’ve never seen it framed this way an…

It's really the most interesting thing I read in this screed, the rest of which seemed to be clueless BS like, "changes to App Store policies that will improve the state of the internet." No. Unlike Google, Meta, and Amazon, Apple is not a gatekeeper to the Internet. They are the gatekeeper to one thing: their own app store. It's tiresome to hear the same anti-"big-tech" hysteria aimed at Apple. They aren't a monopol…

> They are the gatekeeper to one thing: their own app store.

They also control the OS and don't allow side-loading or other app stores (without putting absurd obstacles in the way) So in the end they completely control the devices they sell.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#386

Post by ClaraForm »

_benton wrote: post #180
ghusto wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is not forced into doing business in Europe, because there are a multitude of other anticompetitive tolerant regions (much larger than Europe mind you) they can do business in. If Apple prefers anticompetitive practices, it can simply only do business in those regions.

I'm curious what becomes the breaking point for them to pull out of a region. Obviously it's about profit but at what point (if any) does it make profitable sense for them to leave?

Never. The Apple bet, the North Star, is that personal computing is both the present and the future. The minute an exception gets carved out, like “personal computing but not in Europe” then Apple enters a death spiral. They’ll deal with each blow that comes their way because it will come for everyone else in the market too, but they’ll still be in the lead.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#387

Post by theknarf »

andrewinardeer wrote: post #20

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

That's just an argument in favour of monopolization. Monopolization kills innovation and hurts the market. Companies are not individuals that should be allowed to do whatever they want just because they have already invested in R&D, thats a nonsensical argument. That's like saying that car companies don't have to put seatbelts in cars because they already invested in R&D for building the car. It doesn't matter what a company have or haven't done! Rules exists for creating a better society.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#388

Post by robertlagrant »

x3ro wrote: post #325
andrewinardeer wrote: post #20

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

Ah finally someone coming to the rescue of criminally underrepresented multi-billion dollar companies and their inevitable tactics of building monopolies, because how else do you 10% revenue growth every year. I hear Shell is also in need of some help, maybe you can find a thread on them? /s But seriously though: why do people argue that „investing money“ leads to „I can do whatever the hell I want to my client base“…

You pays your money and you makes your choice

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#389

Post by pjc50 »

ClaraForm wrote: post #375
dcow wrote: post #270

> Companies that monetize user data in exchange for “free” services that abuse your privacy aren’t affected by this [the app store tax], as they don’t process payments through the App Store. However, privacy-first companies that monetize through subscriptions are disproportionately hit by this fee, putting a major barrier toward the adoption of privacy-first business models. Huh. I’ve never seen it framed this way an…

I have disorganized thoughts about this, but it's not just a debate about vertical isolation vs not. 1. The size of Apple/Alphabet/Samsung makes it difficult to enter the market (see: factories having ridiculous MOQs for small-batch phone manufacturing), pushing everyone else out. 2. The size of the smartphone market makes it impossible to not have to deal with one of the above companies for certification, market pen…

Exactly. All the free market logic assumes that barriers to entry are low. They are incredibly high and the market is naturally prone to converging on a single solution. There's basically room for two smartphone ecosystems. Microsoft/Nokia couldn't sustain a third. Android-adjacent things like Amazon Fire and Tizen have little market share.

> factories having ridiculous MOQs for small-batch phone manufacturing

Ironically in the contract manufacturing area the market is actually efficient. Small batches just cost more as an intrinsic fact about manufacturing. I guarantee you could get a quote for any quantity of manufacturing above 1, you just wouldn't like it.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#390

Post by detaro »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #345
detaro wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not required to use Steam to buy games on any device (even on the Steam Deck it's trivial to install games from other sources). It has big market power because gamers actually like it and actively choose it over alternatives (often even those that come pre-installed with the platform, the Windows store and the XBox app). It does not prevent devs from selling their games on multiple stores. It's dominant posit…

Oh hey I wasn't aware of that lawsuit and (IMO) that's really good news. My only real concern with steam as a platform was the off-platform pricing clause. I figured it was likely unenforceable if a studio simply released a "steam edition" or whatever artificial version differentiation, but at the same time they can always refuse to do business with you for any reason (or no reason even). So at that point the clause…

People usually mix up things: The clear clause in their ToS is about selling Steam keys. A dev on Steam can generate Steam keys and sell them wherever they want, and Steam does not take a cut on those. For those, there is an explicit clause that says that you need to match the pricing on Steam.

For just selling the game elsewhere, there is no such clause, and there are games that e.g. are cheaper on Epic and explicitly say that's because Epic takes lower fees. But there are also devs claiming that Valve pressured them in private to not do that, and that's what the lawsuit is about.

Post reply on HN