Earlier quoted context omitted.
No external display support under Linux.
I have a 4k display plugged into my Asahi M1 (hdmi port).
Your MacBook air m1?
Or a mini?
> it’s really hard not to just buy a MacBook Air at this price level.
Framework Laptop 12 review
381–390 of 398 posts
Re: Framework Laptop 12 review
#382Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The number of people who pick the second option given that trade off is so small that hardly anybody even bothers to offer it. The number of manufacturers or the number of people? Apple was on the path to laptop irrelevancy before the M series, it doesn't seem clear to me at all that people don't care about noise and heat along with performance.
People generally have a priority between noise and heat vs. performance. If you don't do compute-heavy stuff then you might as well have something quiet. If you do, i.e. you're always waiting on the machine, how many of those people want to sacrifice a third of their performance to avoid having a fan?
But it’s not a binary choice:
Performance along which characteristics? How much performance does one need locally? At which point does heat/noise/energy cost become too much for a mobile workstation?
All of these are additional criteria that the M series laptops competes in (and in many cases wins), even amongst programmers who are some of the most compute performance sensitive consumers out there.
Re: Framework Laptop 12 review
#383Earlier quoted context omitted.
>a 4 year old CPU that is still unmatched by their competition It isn't all that high performance compared to other laptops, but sure.. fanless and low power it has. I just would rather plug in a laptop to get my workload done in 1/2 of the time it would take on an M1 laptop. The Dell laptop we got runs at 55W (Intel Core i9-13900HX) and is faster than the M1 Ultra 20-core at 60 Watts, which you can't even get in a l…
If you look next to you, you might find Dunning and Kruger
Your low-effort troll should get you banned. If all you do is make an ad hominem attack, then you're the asshole.
Re: Framework Laptop 12 review
#384Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The story is a lot more in favor of Apple if you look at single-core efficiency Your link is comparing the M3 against AMD chips with higher TDPs. Higher TDPs tank "single-core efficiency" because power consumption is non-linear with clock speed. Give a core near its limit three times the power budget and you're basically dividing the single-core efficiency by three because you burn three times more power and barely…
Ofcourse, but that's the whole point right? At similar power levels, Apple M-series is a lot faster. The only way for AMD and Intel to compete on performance is by providing more power, but this obviously has a negative effect on efficiency. So with AMD/Intel you have to choose: efficient and slow or inefficient and fast. With Apple you can actually have it both ways.
> Ofcourse, but that's the whole point right? At similar power levels, Apple M-series is a lot faster. The only way for AMD and Intel to compete on performance is by providing more power
They're saying the exact opposite of that. Their claim is that all the extra power is only juicing performance a little bit, so at similar power levels the performance is not all that far apart.
Re: Framework Laptop 12 review
#385Earlier quoted context omitted.
I bought the DIY FW13 a while back, and it took me 40 minutes from receiving the box to having it fully assembled, Fedora installed and a Youtube video playing. I bought the hi-res display a month or two ago, and the whole replacement took ~20 minutes. In between those two experiences, the whole upgradeability thing feels very very real for me. If anything, it's easier to work on than my desktop PC.
For the same money, one can also get a laptop that has a nice display right from day one. The FW12 looks interesting, but if I'm hoping to buy an upgraded screen down the road, and a better CPU, a backlit keyboard, a better camera, and maybe better speakers... then I am not taking advantage of upgradeability, I'm bending over backwards just to avoid buying a Lenovo Yoga or so.
Don't get me wrong — the real draw is repairability, not upgradability. Upgrades are just a fringe benefit for a nerd who likes tinkering, and proof that the repairability is real.
Re: Framework Laptop 12 review
#386Earlier quoted context omitted.
Works fine for me. How else do you think the studios/minis run it?
Huh, when did this happen? I thought external display was still not supported on MacBook air m1s? Ed: according to https://asahilinux.org/docs/platform/feature-support/m1/#soc... MacBook air still have no external display support?
I imagine this is actually a usb-c issue rather than straight-up no display support
Re: Framework Laptop 12 review
#387Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the repairabilty makes it hard to even compare monetary value, since in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. Is it cheaper to buy two other laptops compared to one laptop + mainboard? That's what, a 3-5 year timeline? Who knows what prices/capabilities/etc will be like then.
>in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. I love the idea of Framework, but the upgradability seems questionable to me. I base this off my experience with desktops where I've rarely over the decades upgraded more than the hard drive and RAM. When I'm looking at upgrading the motherboard it seems I just end up going all the way and getting a new case/ps/etc at the same time. Maybe t…
Your mental idea of "desktop pc" probably doesn’t consider monitor, speakers, keyboard, touchpad, camera and most importantly battery. It isn’t mobile, wear risk of damage is limited. The case of a desktop pc is merely an afterthought, in a laptop it’s protection and interface, basically the thing. A desktop pc is usually also rather overpowered, since heat/energy demands and high component costs are of less concern, where laptops are often defined by compromise between physics, costs and tech at a certain time. Why would you bother upgrading an overpowered desktop CPU/RAM for slightly better energy efficiency, where in a laptop a „node size jump“, or even new ISA can mean double battery life, or less thermal throttling.
Re: Framework Laptop 12 review
#388Earlier quoted context omitted.
I bought the DIY FW13 a while back, and it took me 40 minutes from receiving the box to having it fully assembled, Fedora installed and a Youtube video playing. I bought the hi-res display a month or two ago, and the whole replacement took ~20 minutes. In between those two experiences, the whole upgradeability thing feels very very real for me. If anything, it's easier to work on than my desktop PC.
For the same money, one can also get a laptop that has a nice display right from day one. The FW12 looks interesting, but if I'm hoping to buy an upgraded screen down the road, and a better CPU, a backlit keyboard, a better camera, and maybe better speakers... then I am not taking advantage of upgradeability, I'm bending over backwards just to avoid buying a Lenovo Yoga or so.
Specs aren’t everything.
If we’re talking Thinkpads, Framework has a better offering IMO, especially if you don’t get Lenovo edu prices. I think for a lot of IT departments the Frameworks are quite attractive, now. And that’s before they even really developed the business offering.
How’s Linux support on the cheap non-thinkpad Yoga? If it doesn’t boot, can you easily remove the SSD and protect your data before sending it in for a few weeks? Fixing a Framework yourself doesn’t void its warranty. In a deadline situation this can be quite existential.
You are seemingly also come from a place where the individual grand total is your measure, but if finances are limited, the progressive, as needed upgrade path may be more of a value in itself. Something something shoes.
I don’t think the "just buy a Mac" or the cheapest laptop possible crowds are the target audience. I can totally see something like the Framework 12 becoming the platform for eg. a school's FOSS based tech program with good maintenance scalability. Especially outside the US.
Re: Framework Laptop 12 review
#389Earlier quoted context omitted.
>in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. I love the idea of Framework, but the upgradability seems questionable to me. I base this off my experience with desktops where I've rarely over the decades upgraded more than the hard drive and RAM. When I'm looking at upgrading the motherboard it seems I just end up going all the way and getting a new case/ps/etc at the same time. Maybe t…
Parent said nothing about upgradability, it was about repairability. Modularity supports both but I buy framework laptops for the repairability. I stopped buying laptops for real work a long time ago as they were to fragile and had to be sent back to the manufacturer for repairs. Having a modular (repairable) laptop means I don't need a desktop computer just to reliably have a computer.
In case you must send it in, with a Framework you can also remove the SSD (in like a minute) beforehand, so you don’t have to trust the manufacturer‘s repair contractor with your digital secrets/data integrity.
Re: Framework Laptop 12 review
#390Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, this is my experience with a Fairphone 4. It seemed pricey initially, but I have saved sooo much by being able to carry out simple repairs.
How often do you break your phone that you've save sooo much? Mine is at least 2 years older (I got it 2 years before the Fairphone 4 was released) and I've spend 0$ dollars repairing it.
So you haven’t even changed the battery? That would be impressive durability.