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Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

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Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#381

Post by wamatt »

pg wrote: post #204
hnriot wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes saying an idea is pointless is positive feedback, there are a lot of people here that 'launch a startup' which basically means some half-assed website that does something utterly pointless and then expect the community to be like some kind of benevolent uncle and pat them on the back and say what an awesome idea and execution. Many many ideas really are pointless and negative criticism is very much a part o…

Can't we all just act like adults and learn to deal with the negative comments Actually I find that harsh comments are more common among children and noobs than adults and experts. A random fan watching a football game in a bar is far more likely to use harsh language about a player who misses a pass than another professional football player would. What's happened here is itself evidence of this trend. The comments h…

I think it's also important to distinguish "negative" from "critical thinking".

While we can probably mostly agree that sniping (especially personal attacks) are rotten, I suspect useful insights, that are critical in nature, often get thrown in with the dirty laundry, and labelled as "negative". "Awesome site dude!! SO happy for you :) :)" and a whole bunch of potentially fake, shiny superlatives can also become a turnoff.

Quite likely this is a minority viewpoint.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#382

Post by wwerre »

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #276
phpnode wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You personify the problem, this kind of valueless snark is not welcome here.

As the OP was suggesting, I'm just trying to provide my feedback in a more pleasant way. On the other hand, your feedback seems to be rather harsh and all negative. Unless you were trying to be ironic. In which case I say brilliant!

Go fuck yourself.

I don't care to spend the time to dress up my reply as you seem to do. All your comments can be succinctly stated as, "Go fuck yourself." But you feel the need to apply some pseudo-intellectualism/cleverness to prove your point. You're not better than everyone else. You're not smarter than everyone else. And you don't know better than everyone else. And before you say, "Well I never said that." Your attitude just screams of this kind of arrogance/know-it-all-ness.

So really, go fuck yourself. Maybe that'll unearth whatever stick is shoved up your ass.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#383

Post by brianto2010 »

sigkill wrote: post #314
brianto2010 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a neat idea. -1 doesn't mean much without a comment explaining why. I do have a concern, though. If this system is implemented, doesn't that mean that the "new kids" will also have access to this system and may use it to exasperate HN's "new kids" problem? What about modifying the existing HN guidelines to include comments and promote the guidelines more? For example, cite a downvote with an appropriate quote…

But with a clear cut system like the one mentioned above, why shouldn't new members get to downvote as well? The system would clearly convey its intended usage, and in the process bring new members up to speed faster. If you still want to impose a restriction, it definitely shouldn't be karma based. I find it a bit counter-intuitive. [Assume maximum evil] You're going to allow someone to downvote others based on how…

"New" members shouldn't downvote because they might not downvote the right things, or for the right reasons. I do not consider lurkers "new members."

I also disagree with the idea of karma-driven downvote system. However, I wrote the above with the assumption that those who can downvote know HN values and enforce them. As you pointed out, yes the karma-downvote thing doesn't quite accomplish it's goal (assuming the goal is to allow senior members to act as enforcers). It should change. However that wasn't quite the point of my post.

My original point is: if you gonna say smack, gimme a damn good reason why.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#384

Post by brianto2010 »

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #331
brianto2010 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a neat idea. -1 doesn't mean much without a comment explaining why. I do have a concern, though. If this system is implemented, doesn't that mean that the "new kids" will also have access to this system and may use it to exasperate HN's "new kids" problem? What about modifying the existing HN guidelines to include comments and promote the guidelines more? For example, cite a downvote with an appropriate quote…

If the current rule applies that says you don't get to down-vote until you reach N karma, the "new kids" don't really get to do much. I for one would value a system that forced a down-vote to be accompanied by some sort of explanation of why. I suppose at less than a year old I am still a "new kid" so I will say in my infancy (a few months old) I had a comment down-voted for reasons that were not obvious to me. I was…

Good point about the karma limit. I was writing under a different assumption.

What I was proposing in my earlier post was exactly as you say: explain the downvote.

Maybe let everyone downvote, but have tiny radio buttons with reasons next to them. :-)

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#385

Post by dfc »

phaus wrote: post #377
sigkill wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your experiment matches Dan Ariely's experiment very well. In his book, "Predictably Irrational" when people are made to remember the ten commandments or even the thought of ten commandments, or any such honesty pledge, their dishonesty level drops drastically. One of these days, I'm going to make a chapterwise summary of that book so that I can remember the experiments and behaviours at a glance.

I wonder why such a phenomenon occurs, when five of the commandments have nothing to do with morality. Also, in the Army we had the Warrior's Ethos, the Army Values, the Soldier's Creed, and the Creed of the Non-Commissioned Officer crammed down our throats daily. While are some awesome people in the Military, I've run into just as many dishonorable people as I have in the general population.

"I've run into just as many dishonorable people as I have in the general population."

Can you think of any group this would not be true for given a sample size or population as large as the military?

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#387

Post by dennisgorelik »

pg wrote: post #114

It's a genuine problem and has been growing gradually worse for a while. I think the cause is simply growth. When a good community grows, it becomes worse in two ways: (a) more recent arrivals don't have as much of whatever quality distinguished the original members, and (b) the large size of the group makes people behave worse, because there is more anonymity in a larger group. I've spent many hours over the past se…

1) Define moderators as subset of voters that you trust. One of such moderators would be you.

2) Rate every other voter against moderators' votes. If voter upvoted the same as moderator, then increase weight of such voter in the future. If voter upvoted against moderator vote -- decrease future voter's weight.

3) For every comment calculate weighted upvote/downvote total based on voters clicks and weights calculated in #2.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#388

Post by rexreed »

pg wrote: post #114

It's a genuine problem and has been growing gradually worse for a while. I think the cause is simply growth. When a good community grows, it becomes worse in two ways: (a) more recent arrivals don't have as much of whatever quality distinguished the original members, and (b) the large size of the group makes people behave worse, because there is more anonymity in a larger group. I've spent many hours over the past se…

How about just getting rid of this upvote / downvote point system? I have to say, when I first joined, I didn't get it. Now I do. It's a competition. But not one that seems to improve the quality of the posts or comments. One that improves ... not sure what. So is it valuable?

Remember the BBS forums and forums of old days when you didn't have points and rankings? Yeah. The forums often degenerated there too. Points didn't seem to help or matter. But moderated forums worked well. If you want high quality, you'll need a walled garden. But walled gardens rarely work and stifle creativity. However if you think a point system is a substitute for moderated comments. Well, then, the results speak for themselves.

So, points and voting be gone, maybe? I doubt the quality would change much. Even PG admits that it's not the voting per se, but the entrance of a larger volume of people.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#389

Post by phaus »

dfc wrote: post #385
phaus wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why such a phenomenon occurs, when five of the commandments have nothing to do with morality. Also, in the Army we had the Warrior's Ethos, the Army Values, the Soldier's Creed, and the Creed of the Non-Commissioned Officer crammed down our throats daily. While are some awesome people in the Military, I've run into just as many dishonorable people as I have in the general population.

"I've run into just as many dishonorable people as I have in the general population." Can you think of any group this would not be true for given a sample size or population as large as the military?

The point was that I can't. The study mentioned above claims that people act more honestly when they are reminded of a set of values to which they are supposed to adhere. I was simply stating that while I was in the military (for about a decade), we were constantly reminded of the set of values which we were supposed to follow, yet I saw no signs that such a practice has any effect whatsoever on an individual's behavior.

Honest, decent people who join the military (or any other group) will likely remain honest and decent. Dishonest people will most likely remain dishonest until their actions prevent them from getting what they want.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#390

Post by dfc »

phaus wrote: post #389
dfc wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I've run into just as many dishonorable people as I have in the general population." Can you think of any group this would not be true for given a sample size or population as large as the military?

The point was that I can't. The study mentioned above claims that people act more honestly when they are reminded of a set of values to which they are supposed to adhere. I was simply stating that while I was in the military (for about a decade), we were constantly reminded of the set of values which we were supposed to follow, yet I saw no signs that such a practice has any effect whatsoever on an individual's behav…

Did you hang out with those people during civilian life? How can you say the various credos had no effect on them if you do not have the same experience without the credos.
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