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I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

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Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#381

Post by overfeed »

socalgal2 wrote: post #345
kerkeslager wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stuff like this seems like such a dividing line to me. Like, in theory when people believe things that are morally wrong, I want to reach out to them with compassion and respect and try to gently persuade them to my side because we're all, in theory, on the same side. But if you don't want kids to be fed, I really am not sure we're actually on the same side any more and I really am not sure what to do with that.

You can want kids to be fed and fully believe that the government giving out free meal to all kids will eventually lead to kids not being feed. I can think of lots of arguments Budgets might be cut directly, so can not feed some percent, budgets might be cut indirectly (less tax revenue). Giving out free food might make people feel entitled and less likely to learn to be self sufficient. The "give a man a fish he eat…

> Giving out free food might make people feel entitled and less likely to learn to be self sufficient

To be clear, the subject is still children, right? Refusing to feed children to "teach" them self-sufficiency is, IMO, right up there with a non-ironic "the children yearn for the mines". What could a self-sufficient 6th-grader even do for money? Steal baby food and small electronics from Target for fencing?

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#382

Post by lurkshark »

socalgal2 wrote: post #345
kerkeslager wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stuff like this seems like such a dividing line to me. Like, in theory when people believe things that are morally wrong, I want to reach out to them with compassion and respect and try to gently persuade them to my side because we're all, in theory, on the same side. But if you don't want kids to be fed, I really am not sure we're actually on the same side any more and I really am not sure what to do with that.

You can want kids to be fed and fully believe that the government giving out free meal to all kids will eventually lead to kids not being feed. I can think of lots of arguments Budgets might be cut directly, so can not feed some percent, budgets might be cut indirectly (less tax revenue). Giving out free food might make people feel entitled and less likely to learn to be self sufficient. The "give a man a fish he eat…

I think the rebuttal to the majority of these arguments is “So you want children to go hungry to prove a point?”

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#383

Post by taxedrollik »

jaggederest wrote: post #249
brundolf wrote: post #196

Many people, especially in our subculture, tend to feel like if they can't solve an entire problem forever, if they can't Change The World, what they're doing is futile and pointless But most people can't change the world. Most individuals shouldn't have the power to change the world. What we can do is be a force for good in the lives that are proximal to us. If we can make a few people's lives better, we should rest…

I find it really challenging to get people to notice these things, let alone actively take even small actions for positive change. I'm interested in what the community thinks are some of the methods I could use to improve these things, and why people quickly become inured to these kinds of problems. I'm thinking, specifically, about peeling paint, litter, dirty signs, the kind of thing that even a passing effort, a h…

Part of the reason people don't do those kinds of things where I live is that the municipalities specifically prohibit any kind of alterations, including repair, on municipal property. If something is broken, they will tell you that you must wait until the municipality feels like fixing it

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#384

Post by [deleted] »

monero-xmr wrote: post #326
kerkeslager wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stuff like this seems like such a dividing line to me. Like, in theory when people believe things that are morally wrong, I want to reach out to them with compassion and respect and try to gently persuade them to my side because we're all, in theory, on the same side. But if you don't want kids to be fed, I really am not sure we're actually on the same side any more and I really am not sure what to do with that.

[flagged]

[deleted]

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#385

Post by verisimi »

mschuster91 wrote: post #375
verisimi wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about this: we give all people all meals, clothes, housing, heating (all essentials) and spending money so that they can explore their interests, travel, etc?

That's how most of Europe actually works: we assist those who for whatever reason are unable to support themselves. Granted, our systems aren't perfect either. People fall through the cracks sometimes or have to deal with inane bureaucracy. But you generally won't see large encampments of homeless citizens openly defecating on the sidewalks or school children being shamed for their parents not having lunch money.

[flagged]

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#386

Post by lurkshark »

verisimi wrote: post #344
kerkeslager wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stuff like this seems like such a dividing line to me. Like, in theory when people believe things that are morally wrong, I want to reach out to them with compassion and respect and try to gently persuade them to my side because we're all, in theory, on the same side. But if you don't want kids to be fed, I really am not sure we're actually on the same side any more and I really am not sure what to do with that.

I'll play devil's advocate, and you tell me the immorality of the position. Say you have no children. Is it an acceptable position to hold that 'those people who have children should also be the ones to look after them'? Shouldn't you have considered these sorts of expenses and being able to meet them, rather than expecting to receive handouts?

Even with no children of your own, you still reap benefits from living in a society where children are fed.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#387

Post by Baeocystin »

heresjohnny wrote: post #367

As someone from Europe, I had heard before about bankrupting ambulance rides, slavery in prisons, and food deserts. I did not expect to add “lunch money humiliation ritual” to that list. I’ll think of this next time I complain about my 50% income tax.

I still have vivid memories of getting the 'reduced cost' meal ticket for school lunch. They made all of us with the reduced tickets stand in line and wait for the other kids to get their food first, where all the other kids had to walk past and stare at us, and once everyone else was served, they'd put the food away that was given to the other kids, then hand out shitty plastic-wrapped sandwiches that were half the size of the barely-adequate meals the 'full' sized lunches got.

It was all on purpose, too, to make us ashamed for not paying the full amount.

The adults that chose this path were fucking evil ghouls, the lot of them. Of all the things I want my tax money to go to, ensuring that no one (and especially growing children) need to feel hunger pangs while trying to learn is close to top of the list.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#388

Post by boneitis »

socalgal2 wrote: post #345
kerkeslager wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stuff like this seems like such a dividing line to me. Like, in theory when people believe things that are morally wrong, I want to reach out to them with compassion and respect and try to gently persuade them to my side because we're all, in theory, on the same side. But if you don't want kids to be fed, I really am not sure we're actually on the same side any more and I really am not sure what to do with that.

You can want kids to be fed and fully believe that the government giving out free meal to all kids will eventually lead to kids not being feed. I can think of lots of arguments Budgets might be cut directly, so can not feed some percent, budgets might be cut indirectly (less tax revenue). Giving out free food might make people feel entitled and less likely to learn to be self sufficient. The "give a man a fish he eat…

I feel it on those concerns, though after all, I think the point of some people's stances is that everybody should be able to take free (and dignified) student lunches for granted, as sensible as the fish-vs-how-to-fish adage is in general.

I think the concern about entitlement better applies when looking out for vultures taking advantage of these campaigners' goodwill by trying to wedge themselves into the middle of any cashflow for as-optimizably-marginal-as-possible contribution to those pipelines. Of course, I'm thinking of this more in some context of if there was a sort of centralized campaign to scale up efforts, say, statewide or nationwide (pardon my U.S-centric perspective), to solicit donations to pay off a bunch of schools' lunch debts in a region.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#389

Post by rienbdj »

socalgal2 wrote: post #345
kerkeslager wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stuff like this seems like such a dividing line to me. Like, in theory when people believe things that are morally wrong, I want to reach out to them with compassion and respect and try to gently persuade them to my side because we're all, in theory, on the same side. But if you don't want kids to be fed, I really am not sure we're actually on the same side any more and I really am not sure what to do with that.

You can want kids to be fed and fully believe that the government giving out free meal to all kids will eventually lead to kids not being feed. I can think of lots of arguments Budgets might be cut directly, so can not feed some percent, budgets might be cut indirectly (less tax revenue). Giving out free food might make people feel entitled and less likely to learn to be self sufficient. The "give a man a fish he eat…

In the specific case of free school meals:

- economies of scale in feeding an entire school

- recipients of the benefit (children) and delivery mechanism (kitchens) are already at the right place and time

- can guarantee money is spent on food rather than (for example) a parents gambling addiction

- reduces stigma for poor children to have universality

- can (in theory) deliver better food using school cooking facilities

- saves time even for parents who can afford to feed children

- teaching a hungry child is an uphill battle

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#390

Post by Symbiote »

verisimi wrote: post #361
yojo wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not denying food to the parents, you are denying food to the children. They did not choose to be born, and they certainly didn’t choose the fiscal responsibility of their parents. Maybe there is room in there to shame the parents or give them a slap on the wrist, but the kids are blameless and denying them food makes you probably a monster.

[flagged]

> Why not give all children breakfast and dinner too, and buy them good clothes to wear?

You can see the rates for this in Europe, Australia, Canada and South Korea here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_benefit

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