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Pope Francis has died

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Re: Pope Francis has died

#381

So Pope Francis departs for a meeting with his boss perhaps? Jokes aside, he seemed like a genuinely decent human being and enough of a humanist to cast aside some of the drier absurdities surrounding the bureaucracy of Catholic Church administration, and ideology. Even as someone who's deep in the skeptically agnostic camp on any questions about supreme creators (after all even a firm atheist can't be absolutely sur…

> after all even a firm atheist can't be absolutely sure there is no genuine God Why so? There is no reason for one to exist so not having one is the obvious case. We could of course assume anything, that we are av stylization, that the world is a large ice cream, that what we see is not the reality, whatever If we go for that, sure, we cannot be sure of anything. But we then must also believe that we may live in a l…

>There is no reason for one to exist so not having one is the obvious case.

It's a usable supposition, sure, and I agree that being asked to prove a negative is silly, but you can't actually be sure that one doesn't exist. It's not the obvious case at all, it's not even all that obvious as a supposition.

What's more, superficially at least, it makes more sense to believe in a supreme, essentially divine creator than it does to believe visibly enormous complexity deriving from a mostly unknown nothing.

I'd say that this more than anything has been responsible for virtually all cultures in history believing in supreme, divine creators of one kind or another vs no historical cultures that I know of believing in the universe springing from random chance and hand-wavey nothingness behind it.

We could also of course be living in a large ice cream, you can't be absolutely sure that's not the case either.

Though, the idea of being the creations of a tremendously powerful and conscious being that created a universe hospitable to our use and for our potential given by all our evident cognitive and material tools seems to me a lot more plausible than being subject to an accidental existence in a gargantuan ice cream environment.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#382
post #45

I genuinely liked him, even as an atheist. He seemed to be trying his best to make the world a better place and I can't fault him for that.

He riled many of his flock and hierarchy when he said that "even atheists can be redeemed". [0] I will always applaud a person who retreats — even just a little — from dogma and fanaticism. https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2013/05/29/187009384/...

> He riled many of his flock and hierarchy when he said that "even atheists can be redeemed".

It's quite a bit above our pay grade to proclaim categorically who supposedly cannot be redeemed; it verges on blasphemy.

Cf. Job. 38:

1. Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

2 “Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge?

3 "Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand.

5 "Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6 "On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone—

7 "while the morning stars sang together and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?"

(etc.)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%2038&versio...

Re: Pope Francis has died

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gonna disagree with you there. https://www.openbible.info/topics/hell

Modern academic scholarship paints a very complex picture: https://www.bartehrman.com/hell-in-the-bible/ I would argue that reading random quotes without context can be misleading. Unless of course you believe in a univocal, consistent and divinely inspired bible - which is a fairly extreme position to take.

> I would argue that reading random quotes without context can be misleading. Unless of course you believe in a univocal, consistent and divinely inspired bible - which is a fairly extreme position to take.

Those two statements don't follow. You can believe in a univocal, consistent and divinely inspired Bible and still think taking random quotes out of context is bad exegesis.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#385
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Illustrating perfectly how wide this conversation really is, as we don't even have consensus about what "knowledge" means :)

We do! https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/knowledg...

Because everyone knows that millennia of epistemology can be summarized in a single incomplete sentence.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#387
post #314

Last year, an interviewer asked Francis how he envisages hell. His response stayed with me: “It’s difficult to imagine it. What I would say is not a dogma of faith, but my personal thought: I like to think hell is empty; I hope it is.”

It is impossible to reconcile the idea of an omnipotent god that is simultaneously good and permits people to be tortured for eternity. Perhaps he chose the “god is good” over the “god, despite being able, will not prevent billions of reasonable and decent people from suffering eternally” fork in the road. You can’t logically choose both, and if you’re the pope, you probably had better have a belief in the goodness o…

I've mentioned this before on HN but I find it interesting and valuable.

There is an older stream of christian thought on heaven and hell, still somewhat present in eastern christianity, that they are not separate places people are sent to.

In this view they are the same thing, simply the direct experience of the unattenuated light of god. A repentant person will experience this as mercy and all encompassing love, an unrepentant one will experience it as excruciating shame and terror. But they are both getting the same "treatment" so to speak.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#389

Pope Francis caused quite a bit of controversy among Catholics. From his crackdown on the TLM (Traditional Latin Mass) to his often unscripted, pastoral tone on issues like sexuality, economics, and interfaith dialogue, he unsettled many and yet drew others closer to the Church. With his passing, we’re left to process a papacy that disrupted in the deepest sense of the word. As a Catholic, I often found myself both i…

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