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Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

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Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#381

Post by throwaway3572 »

somat wrote: post #254
marshray wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only sense in which "electricity" could be said to be fluid is in its definition. There's no such physical quantity, it's just a vague term for a variety of phenomena.

It flows, you use fluid equations to describe it's state. I will grant that it flows in a different medium than molecular fluids. but that does not prevent it from being a fluid. As for what is flowing, my understanding is that it is electrons in an em field. which if you think about it is almost the same thing that is flowing in a molecular fluid, only that has drag a bunch of protons around at the same time limitin…

The fluid analogy is ok for introducing the concept of electricity but it has some significant limitations, so one should grow out of it fairly quickly if you want a deeper understanding of the subject.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_analogy#Limits_to_th...

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#382

Post by staunton »

whalesalad wrote: post #185
pjscott wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have actual knowledge of their motives? Or is this speculation, confidently stated as fact? Another possible motive, mentioned in the the paragraph you quote, is that the oil companies see an energy transition coming and are trying to get aboard the hydrogen train to diversify their future revenue sources. And that sounds like a reasonable motive; the sort of thing that people who don't see themselves as evil…

Oil companies, vehicle manufacturers, tire companies and other powerful lobbyists have been doing this for decades so it’s an unsurprising theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp... It’s why we don’t have rail in the US like you see in Europe. At one point in time we had a ton of rail and streetcar networks but these groups destroyed it all because it was a threat to their business. For o…

> ... a threat to their business. For oil companies, so is hydrogen.

Hydrogen is no threat to oil and gas companies, quite the contrary, as discussed by comments all around.

For example, they can produce hydrogen from fossil fuels and justify expanding gas infrastructure while talking about some "future transition".

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#383

Post by seanmcdirmid »

xbmcuser wrote: post #267
tonyhart7 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's why china is leading an EV revolution, government seeing that as very much important geopolitic and economic wise if hydrogen is feasible in mass scale, trust me someone in Asia would already make it

I think a lot of people miss the fact that China did not get to electric out of the blue it invested heavily in all these techs Hydrogen, Nuclear, Wind, Solar and batteries the cheapest and easiest to scale turned out to be Solar, Wind and then batteries. Even today China is still building more hydrogen and nuclear plants than most of the world combined but those technologies have not scaled or gotten cheaper at the…

Most of China’s solar and wind capacity is in its empty west where its people aren’t. They have a bit of transmission, but clearly there is a limit. Western cities like Lanzhou have really cleaned up though as a result. They are limited in how many people can live near renewable sources by water availability.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#385

Post by rnewme »

idiotsecant wrote: post #376
neves wrote: post #125

Why? Because Oil Companies are lobbying for inefficient hydrogen to delay a green revolution: https://adamtooze.substack.com/p/carbon-notes-5-green-hydrog... > The members of the hydrogen coalition are all obviously incumbent fossil fuel and petrochemical interests looking for a bridge to the new era. If realized, their ambitious hydrogen projects may overload the available supply of green power, for little real bene…

Sure are lots of HN software developers that confidently know everything about everything in this thread. I enjoy HN a lot when the subject is software or software adjacent. I find myself avoiding the comments section in actual engineering topics, though. You'd never catch an electrical engineer claiming to be an expert on whatever the flavor of the month is in development but every developer is an expert when it com…

To be fair a lot of us had a lot of education on the topic, and come from engineering backgrounds.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#386

Post by kelnos »

belorn wrote: post #277
xbmcuser wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current US administrations moves against renewables should make you realize how powerful the oil gas lobby is. They got some pushback from local politicians so were slowed down but the way they started they were looking to end all wind and solar for a false promise of nuclear tomorrow.

The last decades' worth of German administrations (and EU countries in general) removed nuclear on the promise of a cheap grid made from green hydrogen and renewables. What they delivered was a EU grid dependent on imported natural gas and a record high ~€400 billions energy subsidies. It is hard to see whose promise of a bright future seems most realistic.

I don't think poor transition planning should be seen as an indictment of renewables. Germany planned their transition poorly; that's on them.

(Germany also is culturally/politically somewhat anti-nuclear, too, which is a shame.)

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#387

Post by kelnos »

lostlogin wrote: post #272
xbmcuser wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current US administrations moves against renewables should make you realize how powerful the oil gas lobby is. They got some pushback from local politicians so were slowed down but the way they started they were looking to end all wind and solar for a false promise of nuclear tomorrow.

> The current US administrations moves against renewables It is promoting electric cars fairly forcefully.

Only because of Musk's involvement. This is crony capitalism at its worst.

If they had their way, we'd all be driving Teslas, charging them with electricity generated from fossil fuels.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#388

Post by hy4000days »

Tade0 wrote: post #80
wahern wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That undersells it. The data on hybrid drivetrains is pretty clear--it's definitely more reliable. Even mechanics will tell you that; certainly mine did, and he's not a masochist. Start+stop is hell on mechanical drivetrains. It's a no-brainer when purchasing a new car except that there's still a premium for hybrid, so the RoI might not be there given baseline reliability and depending on your preferences. Though the…

My ROI is in how I can slam in reverse when I'm rolling forward or floor it whenever without concern for the drivetrain.

[dead]

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#389

Post by kelnos »

Smithalicious wrote: post #320
neves wrote: post #125

Why? Because Oil Companies are lobbying for inefficient hydrogen to delay a green revolution: https://adamtooze.substack.com/p/carbon-notes-5-green-hydrog... > The members of the hydrogen coalition are all obviously incumbent fossil fuel and petrochemical interests looking for a bridge to the new era. If realized, their ambitious hydrogen projects may overload the available supply of green power, for little real bene…

It seems to me like green fundamentalist see nothing but enemies and subterfuge everywhere. Hydrogen, biofuel, nuclear, switching from oil to natural gas where possible, the list goes on. I don't have enough of an opinion to comment on anyone of them individually, but I notice a really striking pattern where every time the idea of alternative energy sources are brought up that are not wind or solar, whoever brings it…

I mean, read the current top sibling comment to yours. Someone who worked at an oil & gas company confirmed that this was their strategy.

Now, I don't think these people are sitting in their carved-out mountain lair, scheming to destroy the world; I'm sure they don't see themselves as villains. But they are making deliberate decisions to protect their business models and bottom line by adopting -- and, importantly, lobbying for -- technology that is polluting and emits greenhouse gases.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#390

Post by kelnos »

paganel wrote: post #357
neves wrote: post #125

Why? Because Oil Companies are lobbying for inefficient hydrogen to delay a green revolution: https://adamtooze.substack.com/p/carbon-notes-5-green-hydrog... > The members of the hydrogen coalition are all obviously incumbent fossil fuel and petrochemical interests looking for a bridge to the new era. If realized, their ambitious hydrogen projects may overload the available supply of green power, for little real bene…

There's no "green revolution" coming, just the powers that be taxing us, normal citizens, to the hell and the back if we'd still want to hang on to our gasoline-powered cars, which taxing policies will for sure bring about the revolution of people choosing to not travel anymore, because too expensive. That's the revolution that they're now putting in place. Also, bonus points to the "liberals" (including many of the…

I think it's a bit weird to blame people who bought Teslas for the current situation with Musk. That's a huge, bad-faith stretch of an argument.
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