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What does this button do? – My new car has a mysterious and undocumented switch

blog.koenvh.nl

381–390 of 525 posts

Re: What does this button do? – My new car has a mysterious and undocumented switch

#381
Realistically I can’t imagine the old owner would keep paying for the data connection on cars they’ve decommissioned and sold off. The device probably is just searching for a network all the time.

Probably. Obviously this assumes competence, attention to detail, and responsibility with corporate funds.

Re: What does this button do? – My new car has a mysterious and undocumented switch

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, give me remote access to your computer. I’ll send a contract saying I can sell what I find, but I haven’t done it so it’s cool and it shouldn’t be cause for alarm.

It’s for sure cause for alarm, but it is a different alarm than if you gad broken into my computer. I’m not a fan of the “they did something bad, so we might as well pretend they did something worse” line of argument. It strikes me as dishonest.

In 2024 to assume a company is not exercising virtually all the rights you’ve given them when you agreed to their terms and services - especially when they stand to make a ton of money doing so - is wild to me.

These companies do not get the benefit of the doubt. I do not need proof to assume they are selling us to the highest bidder when they explicitly outline it in their terms and services and have done it time and time again. Experience has shown us that more often than not they will.

I also didn’t say Nissan stole or broke into anything. My example is appropriate.

Re: What does this button do? – My new car has a mysterious and undocumented switch

#383

> Unlike the Peugeot, the Opel has gadgets - quite a few of them. It is funny because that Opel IS a Peugeot. Same group (Stellantis), and same mechanicals as the contemporary Peugeot 208 with only minor aesthetics and branding modifications.

I thought Opel was a GM marque?

It used to be but it has been until 2017 when the Stellantis group, itself a merger of PSA and Fiat Chrysler, bought them.

Re: What does this button do? – My new car has a mysterious and undocumented switch

#384
post #25

The scary part is not the GPS installed by the fleet company that previously owned the car, which in all likelihood was just forgotten there, but the GPS and eSIM that comes with most (all?) new cars and that in most (all?) new cars cannot be disabled. Apart from privacy concerns of your data being used or sold by the car vendor, government outreach is also a concern. There was a bill announced in the US for all new…

There should not be an expectation of privacy from the authorities when operating a motor vehicles on public roads on which you need a license to drive

While there is no expectation of privacy when one is out and about on the city streets, it generally means "you can take a photo of a fountain on the city square without getting every tourist that was caught in the photo to sign a release", not "you can rummage through everybody's bags"

Re: What does this button do? – My new car has a mysterious and undocumented switch

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter? We can split hairs over whether or not they are actually doing the thing they give themselves the rights to do, but that feels unproductive and disingenuous.

Yes it matters. Or at least it matters whether the claims you make are true, and there is a difference between “had a right to” and “did”. Have I told you about my neighbor who uses a leaf blower nonstop from 7am until 8pm? Well, he doesn’t actually, be he has a right to, and it’s splitting hairs whether he actually does or not.

It's different. The leaf blower thing is something everyone has a right to do, and if it actually bothered enough people the municipality would put some restrictions on it regardless, and they didn't have to intentionally seek it out in legal scripture, and anyone can verify that they are using the leaf blower.

With the cars, they went out of their way to get the right to do so, implying they want to do it, otherwise it would be a waste of money. Nobody can really verify whether they are or are not doing so, as that's confidential company information and it's not illegal (since they have to right to do so) so nobody can subpoena them to find out. So maybe they are doing it and just lying about not doing it.

Re: What does this button do? – My new car has a mysterious and undocumented switch

#386
post #25

The scary part is not the GPS installed by the fleet company that previously owned the car, which in all likelihood was just forgotten there, but the GPS and eSIM that comes with most (all?) new cars and that in most (all?) new cars cannot be disabled. Apart from privacy concerns of your data being used or sold by the car vendor, government outreach is also a concern. There was a bill announced in the US for all new…

There should not be an expectation of privacy from the authorities when operating a motor vehicles on public roads on which you need a license to drive

Some other good ones: there should not be an expectation of privacy when performing surgery. There should not be an expectation of privacy when performing the monopoly on the legal use of force.

Re: What does this button do? – My new car has a mysterious and undocumented switch

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? It is quite clear that the mass populace just doesn't care. That's the bigger story. So many people are quite happy giving away data that they don't fully understand or even want to take time to try to understand as long as they get free/discounted service/fees and use the same equipment to keep up with the Jones. Another study should be why otherwise smart people cannot come to terms with this.

People care about privacy. But in our current telling its a hard problem to understand and the costs are too high. The costs are not talking to friends, or not driving a car. So as a coping mechanism people will convince themselves they dont care for privacy. The phenomena you're describing isn't about caring. You're describing a "trade" in the same way mobsters and conmen do.

What are you on about? Mobsters and conmen break laws. There are no laws being broken by these data hoarders/brokers. Maybe it's closer to Stockholm syndrome or abusive/toxic relationship or something where people are mentally accepting the unhealthy situation as if it were normal.

The costs of talking to friends endlessly about this boring privacy is having no friends. You're telling an addict what they are doing is not good for them, but they are not ready to hear it.

Re: What does this button do? – My new car has a mysterious and undocumented switch

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes sense. The other issue that is mentioned would be the safety features. Air bags and side impact systems are massive jumps forward in safety. Most people aren’t concerned enough with privacy to trade those for it.

Safety is definitely a tricky tradeoff for me. If I couldn't work on the vehicle myself either way I'd have something newer, the combo of privacy and maintenance tip the scales for me (definitely an outlier though).

FWIW I'm the same, definitely sketched out by the thin pillars and lack of side airbags though. But I absolutely hate the GPS and presumably-always-on front- and rear-facing cameras.

Re: What does this button do? – My new car has a mysterious and undocumented switch

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends doesn't it? I keep my cars for a long time. 200k miles is the usual, and that has held true buying used a little ways north of 100k miles already on the board. If we designed for very long car life, the waste equation would look different. Toyota does, and there are a small number of people planning on half a million miles. Recently there is evidence Toyota is either struggling on this metric. Quality pr…

Honda is similar without the Toyota attitude. I’d never buy a Toyota, ever. All of the newer safety doo-dads are less reliable. Where I live, the road salt effectively caps effective lifespan of a car to 180-220k miles. The exhaust and suspension maintenance started to approach or exceed the cars value.

I recently did a Toyota to Honda and back to Toyota cycle.

I liked the overall performance of the Honda. Little things like slightly more aggressive gear ratios, steering and such were superior on the Honda. Economy was almost a push, but the edge goes to Toyota.

The Honda got my attention for service and repair more than the Toyota cars have. And Honda had the advantage overall. My Toyota was older than the Honda, both similar mileage, but the Honda failed earlier. Transmission. :(

I came back to Toyota, but wanting some of the creature comforts offered by Honda, I chose Camry this time. Excellent car. It's a serious, understated, very unassuming vehicle. It performs, feels better than a Corolla did, and still lacks the subtle things like gear ratios that are a bit more fun.

I live where one can put a half mil on a car, if it's up for it. Damn near did that on a Ford Expedition 2000's era vehicle. Guzzled gas, but man! I loved that one for a ton of reasons. Being an active family at the time, the Expy made sense.

For me having the thing just go when I do the maintenance properly matters more than the other aspects do. So, Toyota it is!

*I buy used, 10 to 20 years back, moderate to low mile cars, under $5k. No new vehicles for me. They simply do not make sense.

Now, current Toyota might be a turn-off for me too. The quality issues playing out right now seem worrisome. I hope they get past that.

I'm driving 2000 era vehicles because that was the sweet spot for people like me who will do their own work a majority of the time. I enjoy that, and I know it's done right. It's gone south a few times with shops and I really hate having to navigate that BS.

2000 to 2010, Toyota has me, but Honda is damn close.

So tell me about the Attitude please. Super curious about that. What's the big turn-off? And are you sensing a newer thing, or is this long term, basic?

No judgement or battle here. Just genuine curiosity.

Re: What does this button do? – My new car has a mysterious and undocumented switch

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends doesn't it? I keep my cars for a long time. 200k miles is the usual, and that has held true buying used a little ways north of 100k miles already on the board. If we designed for very long car life, the waste equation would look different. Toyota does, and there are a small number of people planning on half a million miles. Recently there is evidence Toyota is either struggling on this metric. Quality pr…

Honda is similar without the Toyota attitude. I’d never buy a Toyota, ever. All of the newer safety doo-dads are less reliable. Where I live, the road salt effectively caps effective lifespan of a car to 180-220k miles. The exhaust and suspension maintenance started to approach or exceed the cars value.

On a separate topic, is there anything to be done about the salt?

I feel for people living where they do that. I like long term car ownership and that seems like a curse right out the gate!

Can the car be treated, washed? Hmmm, our move to negative ground makes the salt worse. Positive ground cars would help a lot with corrosion, but we don't make those anymore. I never learned why that is.

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