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Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

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Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#381

Post by s1artibartfast »

jstummbillig wrote: post #325
0xEF wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still disagree. Simplicity and convenience is what people not only want, but demand. And this extends beyond weight loss solutions to our modern world of ever-converging technologies creating ever-complex systems under the guise of efficiency. Multiple cultures have supported these values since the times of snake-oil salesmen, which did not exactly vanish with history, as we so often forget. Look at products like O…

> Simplicity and convenience is what people not only want, but demand. Hmm, that is not my experience generally. People will take insanely ineffective routes if that is what the system pushes them toward, without taking much offense. For example, on the topic of health/weight loss: Weight Watchers or yoga classes are huge industries while also being insanely elaborate and expensive ways of eating better and moving yo…

I think some people feel strongly about this issue because it seems like giving up on societal change, which IS necessary for many reasons besides just weight. Even if GLP-1 drugs are safe and long term effective for body fat, they are still a band-aid for a deeper problem. The deeper problem is that people feel and express less and less agency and control over their personal lives. This manifests in many forms, such as depression, anger, cynicism, addiction, loneliness, and personal stagnation. Weight loss will do little to improve these measures while the average American watches 4 hours of TV and is devoid of community.

Im hopeful that these drugs can give people a toehold to tackle these deeper issues, and try to emphasize that they are not a panacea.

People are a product of society, and society is a product of people. If we want to live better people will have to change too.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#383

Post by lenerdenator »

omegaworks wrote: post #379
lenerdenator wrote: post #316

I was wondering when the other shoe would drop. These drugs are turning into a band-aid on the fact that it's more profitable to sell addictive, high-calorie foods in the US than foods that promote long-term health. We'll decay people's heart muscles before we put a tax on unhealthy food to help fund Medicare and Medicaid.

> a tax on unhealthy food to help fund Medicare and Medicaid. Fully 13% of the population lives in an area with restricted access to grocery stores[1]. Couple that with car-centric anti-pedestrian development[2] and you have a definitively societal problem. Addressing that with taxes on the individual will not address these causes, only shift the burden further onto the poor. 1. https://www.aecf.org/blog/communities-…

Then fund the stores through the Medicaid funds generated.

Gotta start somewhere.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#384

Post by hombre_fatal »

462436347 wrote: post #289
jajko wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard this feedback on Ozempic et al from my wife who is a GP some 6 months ago, when I mentioned how US is too much in comfort zone and addicted to HFCS to actually lose weight permanently, ever, so in good old weight-losing fads fashion they will just throw money at the problem, experiencing somewhat variable success and who knows what bad side effects. My wife told me exactly this - potentially all muscle mas…

> addicted to HFCS HFCS consumption (along with added sugar consumption in general) peaked in 2000 and declined steadily until 2020: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38094768

It doesn't give me much confidence bringing it up at all in this convo. As if replacing HFCS with cane sugar (55% vs 50% fructose) changes anything about junk food.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#385

Post by gonzo »

tomhoward wrote: post #181

I'm not commenting specifically on the heart-muscle aspect of the study, but it shouldn't be a surprise that the weight loss from this drug is significantly attributable to muscle loss; it almost always is when dieting. It's the same with keto/low-carb or any other kind of caloric-restrictive dieting (which Ozempic facilitates). The modern weight-loss programs I'm seeing now (at least those aimed mostly at middle-age…

> (2g for every 1kg of body weight each day)

This equates to a 300lb male consuming 272g of protein per day. There are 139g of protein in 1lb of chicken breast.

The RDA to prevent deficiency for an average sedentary adult is 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight. A 300lb male needs about 110g/day at this RDA.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#386

Post by cthalupa »

snozolli wrote: post #345
ANewFormation wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The percents are very different. For example in bodybuilding one normally 'bulks' while working out, because it maximizes muscle gain. But then naturally this needs to be paired with cutting, unless you're a Greek Grizzly, but the total muscle loss is relatively negligible, especially when maintaining a proper high protein diet. At 40% muscle loss you're getting awful close to losing weight while increasing your body…

For example in bodybuilding one normally 'bulks' while working out, because it maximizes muscle gain. But then naturally this needs to be paired with cutting This comes from professional bodybuilding, where people are using steroids, along with various, uh, interesting chemicals on the cut[1]. It has almost no benefit to (real) natural bodybuilders. It's closely tied to cycles of steroids. [1] Ephedrine, Albuterol, C…

Natural bodybuilders 100% go through bulking and cutting cycles.

Outside of noob gains it is incredibly difficult for a natural to add muscle mass when in a calorie deficit and recomposition at maintenance calories is also inefficient in the vast majority of cases.

They won't bulk the same way someone on gear does, but it's still the most efficient way to add muscle mass in the vast majority of cases.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#387

Post by cthalupa »

consteval wrote: post #360
s1artibartfast wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbs is also colloquialism for calorie dense grains and cereals. Broccoli is like 5% carbs by mass. Bread is 50% carbs by mass. It is a hell of a lot easier to overconsume the latter, spike your insulin, and get into a cycle of cravings. There is no boogie man trying to scare people away from broccoli.

> There is no boogie man trying to scare people away from broccoli I disagree, everyone I know who has been on a keto dietic consumes little to no fruits or fiber. Honestly, I'm not sure how they use the bathroom successfully with such little fiber ingestion.

Fruits, yes, because it will kick you out of ketosis. Fiber, every keto adherent I knew would eat fiber in reasonably large quantities because keto often causes constipation, and a lot of the substitutes for things with "regular" carbs were high in fiber.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#388

Post by thisislife2 »

crazygringo wrote: post #281

I'm always so baffled by warnings about losing muscle when losing weight. Of course you do! If your body is tens of pounds lighter, then you don't need the extra muscle to lug it around. This paper is about reduction in heart muscle, and of course your heart doesn't need to be as strong because there's less blood to pump and less tissue to fuel. When you gain weight, you also increase the muscles needed to carry that…

> When you gain weight, you also increase the muscles needed to carry that weight around.

I can't figure out how relevant that is. From what I've seen of obese people they always struggle with limited mobility, which often only improves with physiotherapy (or other forms of exercises). Sumo wrestlers are huge but can move faster than an equivalent obese person because (I assume) they have stronger muscles due to their regular regimented training and diet. Does this mean they have more muscle mass than fat compared to an equivalent obese person? Does more muscle mass indicate stronger muscles?

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#389

Post by cthalupa »

heroiccocoa wrote: post #367
pogue wrote: post #361

It would seem wise to potentially add a low dosed anabolic androgenic steroid like Anavar (Oxandrolone) [1] during a course of Ozempic. This would help keep skeletal muscle in tact during a calorie deficient period. A low dose wouldn't be expected to cause much, if any, side effects. But it's something that would be best put through rigorous studies. But bodybuilders have been using tricks like these for decades (obv…

There are non-steroidal OTC supplements that are specifically anti-catabolic instead of anabolic like HMB[1], a metabolite of the amino acid leucine, and also widely used in the fitness community. Personally I have no idea which is preferable though, or whether anti-catabolism is something actually positive, as we know the importance of autophagy of senescent cells for longevity. Most of the literature I read suggest…

Most data on HMB shows that it is effective in preserving muscle mass in people with cancer cachexia or the eldery, results are generally not great for those without specific diseases or of younger age.

I'm still taking it because it's cheap and I figure I might as well, but anavar is likely significantly more effective.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#390

Post by 1234letshaveatw »

0xEF wrote: post #263
tomhoward wrote: post #181

I'm not commenting specifically on the heart-muscle aspect of the study, but it shouldn't be a surprise that the weight loss from this drug is significantly attributable to muscle loss; it almost always is when dieting. It's the same with keto/low-carb or any other kind of caloric-restrictive dieting (which Ozempic facilitates). The modern weight-loss programs I'm seeing now (at least those aimed mostly at middle-age…

Diet and exercise. It always comes back to that, yet people avoid it like the plague. The modern weight loss program you described is pushed because that's what people want; an extremely low-effort methodology that yields extremely high results. The idea that their is some silver bullet to weight loss has dominated the US health market for ages now because selling someone a pill that they don't have to do anything bu…

I don't know it is always avoidance when it comes to diet and exercise. I think oftentimes it comes down to overscheduling. I like to exercise, I like to eat healthy. Those two are oftentimes the first things on my chopping block when I am hurried
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