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Math is still catching up to the genius of Ramanujan

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Re: Math is still catching up to the genius of Ramanujan

#381
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very impolite to label lived experience of another educated and probably somewhat accomplished adult as immature. At 45 years old I can confidently say that anything I've "learned" on my native language classes through 12 years of having them was totally useless garbage and I'm using none of it in my writing, reading and culturural appreciation or understanding of the world. Everything I use was self-acquired in…

40, and I concur. Even if the goal is a cultural appreciation, Shakespeare's plays will tell you as much about England in 1585-1613 as Terry Gilliam's filmography does about the Anglosphere in 1971-present. It's more than zero, but it's also missing the overwhelming majority of the context and the world in which it exists. Modern readings treat Shakespeare with excessive reverence: not just "a playwright" but " The B…

> Shakespeare's plays will tell you as much about England in 1585-1613 as Terry Gilliam's filmography does about the Anglosphere in 1971-present.

Why, given the vast ocean of possible knowledge, would you assume I or most people would have any interest or benefit in that? Over something like geometric algebra, soldering or solving quadratic equations?

Human creations can be roughly divided in two categories, tools and content. Teaching content is pointless. Its selection is arbitrary and its value is roughly same and miniscule. Millions will choose Frotnite streamer over Shakespeare any day of the week. Math, physics, chemistry, foreign language are tools. Tools that the knowledge of can help you create whatever you desire, both content and whats more important and rare new tools. Native language classes, history, geography, even biology are very content heavy and very poor on tools. Thus they are mostly useless.

Re: Math is still catching up to the genius of Ramanujan

#382

This thread is a good example of one of the perhaps overlooked reasons it can be hard to discuss education in our societies - any attempt at making a general point, or a meta-observation of some kind, quickly gets swallowed in a massive influx of personal anecdotes about things that happened to people during their education. Maybe there are other topics where the same phemonen exists. I'm not sure if off the top of m…

> as to why our education structures seem to make venting such a need for people. Anecdotally, there does seem to be a suggestion of some sort of lingering and powerful malaise around the whole thing, in any case.

Teaching has not incorporated morality or ethics as strongly as some other professions where the need is more obvious. This is combined with the way teaching "quality" is measured. The result is that your average school teacher often uses tactics and methodologies that border on straight up public bullying of their students in order to "achieve results."

> I wonder if it's like an abusive relationship

Neither the teacher or the student engage in a process which selects each other nor is there any process to manage particularly bad combinations of such. They are assigned to and stuck with each other. The ethical failures in teaching abound.

Re: Math is still catching up to the genius of Ramanujan

#383

This thread is a good example of one of the perhaps overlooked reasons it can be hard to discuss education in our societies - any attempt at making a general point, or a meta-observation of some kind, quickly gets swallowed in a massive influx of personal anecdotes about things that happened to people during their education. Maybe there are other topics where the same phemonen exists. I'm not sure if off the top of m…

> ... in a massive influx of personal anecdotes ...

Not sure if you're in the US.

Here, ALL non-technical topics, e.g. nutrition, healthcare, immigration are just a few of the big ones, devolve into a discussion of anecdotes and "feelings."

Re: Math is still catching up to the genius of Ramanujan

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, you're thinking about this backwards. It's good that public school exposes children to many subjects - hopefully most of them. So that they can discover if they click with one of them. The real danger is that someone never gets exposed to a subject at all. College is the place to specialize in a subject.

Exposure is good, but success in school requires you to be successful in these subjects as well. I have had similar thoughts recently as OP thinking about what I want for my young kids and what my experiences in school were. Being _really_ good in one thing should allow you to make up for being subpar in other areas, but it doesn't. You can only get an A (or A+) in math for example, even if your a genius. But maybe y…

I was put into the "advanced" class in grade school, only to hate the increased homework load, and I missed my friends in the non-advanced class, so I intentionally refused to do the work so that I would be put back in the "regular" grade school classes. I was great at math, I taught myself fractions and algebra at a young age. I just didn't like spending so much time on the other subjects, they seemed too easy or too boring and took up too much school time. They wouldn't let me into the computer programming class in High School because I hadn't passed geometry, and the teacher was a total asshole - I failed his class, but I got an A in the make-up class with a different teacher. I got kicked out of electronics class because some other students stole stuff and blamed me for it - I had nothing to do with the theft, I was the teacher's favorite and had access to everything, I didn't need to steal anything, he gave me anything I wanted. God I hated High School so much.

After graduating High School, I couldn't really see myself sitting through 4 more years of basically the same subject material - history, English, social studies, etc... when all I really wanted to do is use my talent in electronics and computers that I'd been accumulating since I was 5 years old. So I went to a trade school for electronics and computers instead of a college, this was back in the late 80's.

I can't say that not going to college hurt my job prospects at all, I've been highly paid for many years for doing something I love. Jobs hired me based on experience, not because I went to a college. That may have changed a bit now, since some tech companies favor college graduates, but I've worked with some college graduates that are just dumb as shit and couldn't get anything done - not all are like that, but going to college isn't an indicator of success at all.

Re: Math is still catching up to the genius of Ramanujan

#385
post #372

I don’t understand why people praise Ramanuja so much. Why not this praise for Euler or Gauss?

There is such praise, just not on this post, but what's powerful about the story of Ramanuja is where he came from. The almost-miss that the world would not have his genius, but for a couple of lucky turns, is a powerful driving story about a diamond in the rough. I'm no such a genius, but the idea of being discovered is very alluring; to idly fantasize that I have some gift that could lead me to fame and riches. It's that nice feeling to hold while reading and thinking about his story.

Re: Math is still catching up to the genius of Ramanujan

#386

The stories of mathematicians like Srinivasa Ramanujan, who claimed to have derived complex partitions and identities in dreams, have always captivated me. It's as if their minds were tapping into some hidden reservoir of knowledge. I'm curious what drives these intuitive leaps. Was Ramanujan's brain quietly processing patterns during sleep, leveraging its default mode network in ways we're still struggling to unders…

The recent book Mathematica by David Bessis attempts to describe this exact topic. One core theme of the book is that math is done by building mental models and using our intuitions that come from. Formalism is then used to shape and refine these models. By spending time developing these models, insights eventually become obvious. These mental models are the essence of mathematics, not theorems. The author explicitly uses neural networks as an example to describe how this negative feedback could work to make these changes to our mental models happen in our brains.

The core premise of the book is to describe how mathematicians work and think and to show that this is a process that everyone can do (although some will be better at it than others). It includes interesting accounts of Grothendieck, Bill Thurston, and Descartes as well as from the author's own research career at Yale and École normale supérieure. The book is targeted at the general reader and at times reads a little like a self-help book, especially in the first third or so. However, I found it to be an enjoyable and fascinating read. It provoked a lot of interesting questions about the nature of learning and provided a framework to begin to answer them (e.g. "How can I have proved something and yet feel no understanding of it?", "How can some people solve problems orders of magnitude faster than other smart people, as if they don't even have to think about it?", "Why do I sometimes watch a presentation on a new topic, follow every step, and come away feeling like I've learned nothing?"(* see except below)). I don't think I'm doing it justice here, so I'll stop by saying I highly recommend it based on your comment.

_______

* I'll use this as an excuse to provide a related excerpt featuring Fields Medalist and Abel Prize winner Jean-Pierre Serre:

One day, I had to give a lecture at the Chevalley Seminar, a group theory seminar in Paris. I didn't have substantial new results to announce, but it was an opportunity to make a presentation even simpler than usual. [...] A couple of minutes before the talk was to start, Serre came in and sat in the second row. I was honored to have him in the audience, but I let him know right off that the presentation might not be very interesting to him. It was intended for a general audience and I was going to be explaining very basic things.

What I didn't tell him, of course, was that his presence was intimidating. Still, I didn't want to raise the level of my talk only to keep him interested. I just kept an eye out to see if he'd taken off his glasses, which would mean he was getting bored and had stopped listening. No worries there—he kept his glasses on till the end.

I gave my presentation as I would have without him there, speaking to the entire audience, especially the students seated in the back, whom I was pleased to see listening and looking like they understood. It was a normal presentation, fairly successful, not very deep but well prepared, clear, and intelligible. At the end of the seminar, Serre came up to me and said—and here I quote verbatim: "You'll have to explain that to me again, because I didn't understand anything."

That's a true story, and it plunged me into a state of profound perplexity.

Apparently, Serre wasn't using the verb to understand the way most people use it. The concepts and reasonings of my talk couldn't really have caused him any difficulty. I'm sure he wanted to say that he understood what I had explained, but he hadn't understood why what I had explained was true.

There are two levels of understanding. The first level consists of following the reasoning step by step and accepting that it's correct. Accepting is not the same as understanding. The second level is real understanding. It requires seeing where the reasoning comes from and why it's natural.

In thinking again about Serre's comment, I realized that my presentation had too many “miracles,” too many arbitrary choices, too many things that worked without my really knowing why. Serre was right; it was incomprehensible. His feedback helped me become aware of a number of very big holes in my understanding of the objects and situations I was working on at the time. In the years that followed, research into explanations for these various miracles allowed me to fill in some of the holes and achieve some of the most important results of my career. (However, some of the miracles remain unexplained to this day.)

But the most troubling aspect was the abruptness, the frankness with which Serre had overplayed his own incomprehension.

Re: Math is still catching up to the genius of Ramanujan

#387

This thread is a good example of one of the perhaps overlooked reasons it can be hard to discuss education in our societies - any attempt at making a general point, or a meta-observation of some kind, quickly gets swallowed in a massive influx of personal anecdotes about things that happened to people during their education. Maybe there are other topics where the same phemonen exists. I'm not sure if off the top of m…

I mean everyone on this thread seems to be pointing to the negative. I would like to point out that what we have achieved from a civilization perspective is literally through education and the structures that we have have gotten us this far. It is a broad tool and could be better. However lets not throw the baby out with the bath water because of all these anecdotes. It feels a little like everyone complaining about capitalism for all the woes in the world.

Maybe it's worth a bit of perspective.

Re: Math is still catching up to the genius of Ramanujan

#388
I cannot recommend reading A Mathematician's Apology enough. It was written by GH Hardy and I think it's one of the best non-math texts out there to understand how a mathematician's brain works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mathematician%27s_Apology

Fairly short and beautifully written.

Re: Math is still catching up to the genius of Ramanujan

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one has time to follow your random links. If you can't put what you have to say about a topic in your own words -- then you don't have anything to say.

And the goalposts, they are a-changin.

I don't see any goal to your posts at all, other than to poke people with purely emotional imagery.

Re: Math is still catching up to the genius of Ramanujan

#390
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

40, and I concur. Even if the goal is a cultural appreciation, Shakespeare's plays will tell you as much about England in 1585-1613 as Terry Gilliam's filmography does about the Anglosphere in 1971-present. It's more than zero, but it's also missing the overwhelming majority of the context and the world in which it exists. Modern readings treat Shakespeare with excessive reverence: not just "a playwright" but " The B…

> Shakespeare's plays will tell you as much about England in 1585-1613 as Terry Gilliam's filmography does about the Anglosphere in 1971-present. Why, given the vast ocean of possible knowledge, would you assume I or most people would have any interest or benefit in that? Over something like geometric algebra, soldering or solving quadratic equations? Human creations can be roughly divided in two categories, tools an…

I was agreeing with you about these points, sorry if that didn't come across, I was rather tired while writing that.

I was also saying that even though the lens of culture, the generally mandatory Shakespeare is overrated.

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