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US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

reuters.com

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Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#381

Post by genocidicbunny »

TheCleric wrote: post #374
bastawhiz wrote: post #257

Lots of people are asking how good the self driving has to be before we tolerate it. I got a one month free trial of FSD and turned it off after two weeks. Quite simply: it's dangerous. - It failed with a cryptic system error while driving - It started making a left turn far too early that would have scraped the left side of the car on a sign. I had to manually intervene. - In my opinion, the default setting accelera…

> Lots of people are asking how good the self driving has to be before we tolerate it. There’s a simple answer to this. As soon as it’s good enough for Tesla to accept liability for accidents. Until then if Tesla doesn’t trust it, why should I?

I think this is probably both the most concise and most reasonable take. It doesn't require anyone to define some level of autonomy or argue about specific edge cases of how the self driving system behaves. And it's easy to apply this principle to not only Tesla, but to all companies making self driving cars and similar features.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#382

Post by eric_cc »

jvanderbot wrote: post #316
modeless wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla jumped the gun on the FSD free trial earlier this year. It was nowhere near good enough at the time. Most people who tried it for the first time probably share your opinion. That said, there is a night and day difference between FSD 12.3 that you experienced earlier this year and the latest version 12.6. It will still make mistakes from time to time but the improvement is massive and obvious. More importantly,…

I have yet to see a difference. I let it highway drive for an hour and it cut off a semi, coming within 9 to 12 inches of the bumper for no reason. I heard about that one believe me. It got stuck in a side street trying to get to a target parking lot, shaking the wheel back and forth. It's no better so far and this is the first day.

Is it possible you have a lemon? Genuine question. I’ve had nothing but positive experiences with FSD for the last several months and many thousands of miles.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#383

Post by sebzim4500 »

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #226

The interesting question is how good self-driving has to be before people tolerate it. It's clear that having half the casualty rate per distance traveled of the median human driver isn't acceptable. How about a quarter? Or a tenth? Accidents caused by human drivers are one of the largest causes of injury and death, but they're not newsworthy the way an accident involving automated driving is. It's all too easy to se…

>It's clear that having half the casualty rate per distance traveled of the median human driver isn't acceptable.

Are you sure? Right now FSD is active with no one actually knowing its casualty rate, and the for the most part the only people upset about it are terminally online people on twitter or luddites on HN.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#384

Post by modeless »

delusional wrote: post #376
modeless wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla jumped the gun on the FSD free trial earlier this year. It was nowhere near good enough at the time. Most people who tried it for the first time probably share your opinion. That said, there is a night and day difference between FSD 12.3 that you experienced earlier this year and the latest version 12.6. It will still make mistakes from time to time but the improvement is massive and obvious. More importantly,…

> That said, there is a night and day difference between FSD 12.3 that you experienced earlier this year and the latest version 12.6 >And I don't even have 12.6 yet, this is still 12.5; How am i supposed to take anything you say seriously when your only claim is a personal anecdote that doesn't even apply to your own argument. Please, think about what you're writing, and please stop repeating information you heard on…

The version I have is already a night and day difference from 12.3 and the current version is better still. Nothing I said is contradictory in the slightest. Apply some basic reasoning, please.

I didn't say I didn't touch the steering wheel. I had my hands lightly touching it most of the time, as one should for safety. I occasionally used the controls on the wheel as well as the accelerator pedal to adjust the set speed, and I used the turn signal to suggest lane changes from time to time, though most lane choices were made automatically. But I did not turn the wheel. All turning was performed by the system. (If you turn the wheel manually the system disengages). Other than parking, as I mentioned, though FSD did handle some navigation into and inside parking lots.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#385

Post by eric_cc »

delusional wrote: post #376
modeless wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla jumped the gun on the FSD free trial earlier this year. It was nowhere near good enough at the time. Most people who tried it for the first time probably share your opinion. That said, there is a night and day difference between FSD 12.3 that you experienced earlier this year and the latest version 12.6. It will still make mistakes from time to time but the improvement is massive and obvious. More importantly,…

> That said, there is a night and day difference between FSD 12.3 that you experienced earlier this year and the latest version 12.6 >And I don't even have 12.6 yet, this is still 12.5; How am i supposed to take anything you say seriously when your only claim is a personal anecdote that doesn't even apply to your own argument. Please, think about what you're writing, and please stop repeating information you heard on…

I can second this experience. I rarely touch the wheel anymore. I’d say I’m 98% FSD. I take over in school zones, parking lots, and complex construction.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#386

Post by Retric »

potato3732842 wrote: post #324
Retric wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More clarity may change people’s opinion of the accident, but IMO pedestrian meaningfully represents someone who is limited to human locomotion and lacks any sort of protection in a collision. Which seems like a reasonable description of the type of failure involved in the final few seconds before impact.

This sort of framing you're engaging in is exactly what the person you're replying to is complaining about. Yeah, the person who got hit was technically a pedestrian but just using that word with no other context doesn't covey that it was a pedestrian on a limited access highway vs somewhere pedestrians are allowed and expected. Without additional explanation people assume normalcy and think that the pedestrian was c…

Dealing with people on freeways is the kind of edge case humans aren’t good at but self driving cars have zero excuses. It’s a common enough situation that someone will exit a vehicle after a collision to make it a very predictable edge case.

Remember all of the bad press Uber got when a pedestrian was struck and killed walking their bike across the middle of a street at night? People are going to be on limited access freeways and these systems need to be able to deal with it. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54175359

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#387

Post by eric_cc »

misiti3780 wrote: post #356
modeless wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla jumped the gun on the FSD free trial earlier this year. It was nowhere near good enough at the time. Most people who tried it for the first time probably share your opinion. That said, there is a night and day difference between FSD 12.3 that you experienced earlier this year and the latest version 12.6. It will still make mistakes from time to time but the improvement is massive and obvious. More importantly,…

i have the same experience 12.5 is insanely good. HN is full of people that dont want self driving to succeed for some reason. fortunately, it's clear as day to some of us that tesla approach will work

Completely agree. It’s very strange. But honestly it’s their loss. FSD is fantastic.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#388

Post by sebzim4500 »

neom wrote: post #222
rKarpinski wrote: post #217

'Pedestrian' in this context seems pretty misleading "Two vehicles collided on the freeway, blocking the left lane. A Toyota 4Runner stopped, and two people got out to help with traffic control. A red Tesla Model Y then hit the 4Runner and one of the people who exited from it. " edit: Parent article was changed... I was referring to the title of the NPR article.

That is the correct use of pedestrian as a noun.

That's why he said misleading rather than an outright lie. He is not disputing that it is techincally correct to refer to the deceased as a pedestrian, but this scenario (someone out of their car on a freeway) is not what is going to spring to the mind of someone just reading the headline.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#389

Post by Retric »

rKarpinski wrote: post #309
Retric wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More clarity may change people’s opinion of the accident, but IMO pedestrian meaningfully represents someone who is limited to human locomotion and lacks any sort of protection in a collision. Which seems like a reasonable description of the type of failure involved in the final few seconds before impact.

Omitting that the pedestrian was on a freeway meaningfully mis-represents the situation.

People walking on freeways may be rare from the perspective of an individual driver but not a self driving system operating on millions of vehicles.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#390

Post by throwaway562if1 »

frabjoused wrote: post #262
bastawhiz wrote: post #257

Lots of people are asking how good the self driving has to be before we tolerate it. I got a one month free trial of FSD and turned it off after two weeks. Quite simply: it's dangerous. - It failed with a cryptic system error while driving - It started making a left turn far too early that would have scraped the left side of the car on a sign. I had to manually intervene. - In my opinion, the default setting accelera…

The thing that doesn't make sense is the numbers. If it is dangerous in your anecdotes, why don't the reported numbers show more accidents when FSD is on? When I did the trial on my Tesla, I also noted these kinds of things and felt like I had to take control. But at the end of the day, only the numbers matter.

AIUI the numbers are for accidents where FSD is in control. Which means if it does a turn into oncoming traffic and the driver yanks the wheel or slams the brakes 500ms before collision, it's not considered a crash during FSD.
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